Good science fiction and fantasy lit vs. the bad stuff

Cafe Society
21

Thanks. Give me a link and then expect me not to open it?

My eyes are bleeding.
My left arm is wrenching itself off at the shoulder.
My brain is trying to escape out my right nostril in panic.
The rest of my body is too stunned to move.

The editor in me is pleading “Let me work on it. I can make it better. Please let me have a chance, I know it can be salvaged.”

Sanity walked out the door before section 2.

Sigh. I did ask for ‘Warning’ stuff. That’s it. The next link you send me, I am going to read it only while I am blindfolded. :eek:

screech (just call me Pandora) -owl
By the way folks, I appreciate all of the information, opinions, and suggestions. Keep 'em coming. I’m printing this out and hitting the library and bookstores over the next few days.

22

You want more? You need a laugh? OK … technically this is a fantasy graphic novel or comic book collection, but do not dismiss it.

Swords of Cerebus
High Society
Church and State I
Church and State II

Author Dave Sim. Start with either of the first two. If you like them, you may want to stop (yes, stop) after C & S II.

The adventures of the world-famous, Cerebus, the aardvark.

I accidentally discovered High Society years ago, and read it (~500 pages) in one sitting. Had to constantly suppress laughter, as I was reading it in the library.

23

It appears to me more that he cares very much for style, literary prose that is highly individualistic. Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein would all rank below zero on such a scale. Silverberg and Zelazny are harder to explain, but neither had the idiosyncratic or immediately distinctive prose of some of his higher ranked writers, like Gene Wolfe, Cordwainer Smith, Steven Millhauser, or Jorge Luis Borges.

If you read the way that Kythereia evidently reads, or I do today, idea fiction is almost as intolerable as “The Eye or Argon.” Each one leaves out half of what makes fiction worthwhile. I’ve read all of Asimov, Clarke and Heinlein (at least up until their dotage) and I gag on their writing when I try to reread it. Ray Bradbury, OTOH, holds up beautifully, because he knew how to write and how to make his style drive the points behind his stories.

However, if I’m going to give recommendations, I’ll do as I always do. Forget the list of favorite writers from the past. Search out the good books that are being published today and create your own lists of favorites.

The best place to start for this is with the Locus Awards. Locus is sort of the trade magazine of science fiction and each year it asks its readership to nominate and vote on the best Novel (usually split into SF, fantasy/horror, and first novel), short fiction, anthology, collection, nonfiction book, art book, publisher, magazine, and artist of the year. Each book category winds up with 10 to 30 titles, making it the longest and best chosen list of who’s done good over the past year.

The 2004 list will be available early in the new year, but go through the previous years’ lists and you won’t be disappointed.

24

Yeah, MacSpon, I :dubious: 'd at this statement too. It makes it sound as though good SF/fantasy is just a good non-SF/fantasy story with a rocket ship or a dragon thrown in. If you can remove the SF/fantasy elements and it still holds up, is it really good SF/fantasy?

Maybe it would be fairer to say that there are many factors which go to make up good SF/fantasy, and that these include, but are not limited to, those which make for good fiction in general.

25

I agree. His comics and short fiction are great. I’ve yet to actually make it through any of his novels. Although I gave Neverwhere a good run. I haven’t seen/heard anything he’s done for TV/Radio yet, but I suspect it would be in the same group as the comics and short stories. (Murder Mysteries, which is great, has appeared in all 3 formats - short story, radio play, and comic book.)

26

Just to briefly continue the hijack, the only Neil Gaiman stuff I’ve read are Good Omens and American Gods. Both come highly recommended from this die-hard Pratchett nut.

27

You could do worse than going back to read some of the early SF biggies.
A E van Vogt; Slan, The War Against the Rull.
Jack Williamson; any of his early pulp collections, the legion series.
Fredric Brown; the man’s a killer with very short stories. His long ones abound with nice qurks.
Each of these authors could a)write well and b) put out original stories before the SF genre started to go all fossiliferous.

28

I read her statement as saying that readers should not have to make compromises - or worse, excuses - about the quality of a work just because it’s genre fiction. That’s exactly what sf readers did for a very long time - “it’s the literature of ideas” - and why genre became so looked down upon.

You should not be able to abstract the f&sf element from a book and still have a complete novel: that element should be implicitly woven throughout the fabric of the work and not be extricable without having the rest collapse. But there is no good reason for not insisting on the values of good writing just because something is genre. On the contrary. Superb sf has all the qualities of good fiction plus the ideas, speculations, worlds, cultures, and examination of what it means to be human that only sf can truly provide.

Only a few of the greats can do this with any regularity, so most of the rest is compromised to some extent. But this is also true of mainstream fiction, and sf is closer now to having the great stuff in the same proportion as mainstream than it has since it became a separate genre in the post-Gernsback era.

29

Y’know, you could definitely do worse than go according to that list. I’ll also recommend the classic Ballantine Adult Fantasy series (edited by Lin Carter in the late 60s/early 70s–Carter was an awful writer, but a damn good anthologist). If you’re looking for more recently-issued reprints, try checking out the stuff in the Fantasy Masterworks series. For good pulp SF reprints, check out the stuff put out by NESFA Press.

Here are some author names, several of which have already been mentioned. Let me know if you want the names of specific books…

Lord Dunsany (IMO, the best fantasy writer ever)
Arthur Machen (weird fiction–Chaosium has reprinted some of his work)
Algernon Blackwood (weird fiction–IMO did two of the best horror stories ever)
Philip Wylie (did the classic “When Worlds Collide” disaster novel, as well as “Gladiator”, which was the inspiration for Superman)
Clark Ashton Smith (weird fiction)
H. P. Lovecraft (weird fiction)
Richard Paul Russo (SF)
Tim Powers (gonzo historical fantasy)
James P. Blaylock (several varieties of fantasy)
Alfred Bester (two classic SF novels, ignore his other stuff)
Francis Stevens (horror/adventure stories)
William Morris (fantasy; keep a good dictionary handy)
Cordwainer Smith (one of the all-time best SF writers)
E. Hoffman Price (weird fiction)
Murray Leinster (SF)
Fredric Brown (cynical SF; also known for mysteries)
Eric Frank Russell (SF)
C. M. Kornbluth (SF)
Henry Kuttner (SF)
David H. Keller (weird fiction)
L. Ron Hubbard (no, really! I actually like the “Ole Doc Methusela” stories, “Slaves of Sleep”, and “Typewriter in the Sky”. Awful writer, but a good storyteller)
Many Wade Wellman (weird fiction)
Arthur Conan Doyle (weird fiction)
Robert E. Howard (the Conan stories are better than you think they’ll be; plus other good weird fiction; plus “A Gent from Bear Creek” is a total hoot)
William Hope Hodgson (weird fiction)
Henry S. Whitehead (weird fiction)
M. P. Shiel (weird fiction)
Karl Edward Wagner (dark fantasy)
Fritz Leiber (coined the term “swords and sorcery”; the first several Fafhrd & Grey Mouser books are classic; also did good weird fiction)
Ted Sturgeon (SF)
Ernest Bramah (the “Kai Lung” books are delightful)
James Branch Cabell (literary fantasy)
Jack Vance (the “Dying Earth” fantasy stories)
Michael Shea (the Nifft fantasy stories)
Stanley G. Weinbaum (SF)
H. Rider Haggard (lost-world fantasy)
A. Merritt (lost-world fantasy)
Edgar Rice Burroughs
Edwin Lester Arnold (inspired Burroughs)
Leslie Barringer (fantasy)
Lafcadio Hearn (weird fiction)
John Collier (weird fiction)
Neal Stephenson (I’ve only read “Snow Crash”)
William Gibson (the guy who everybody thinks invented cyberpunk)
K. W. Jeter (the guy who actually invented cyberpunk–see the book “Dr. Adder”)
P. K. Dick (gonzo SF)
Ambrose Bierce (weird fiction)
Jeffrey Ford (fantasy)
Charles G. Finney (fantasy)
Italo Calvino (fantasy)
Jorge Luis Borges (fantasy)
I suppose I might as well add Gabriel Garcia Marquez, even though I don’t like his stuff very much (magic realism)
Robert W. Chambers (weird fiction)
Guy de Maupassant (weird fiction)
The team of L. Sprauge de Camp & Fletcher Pratt (fantasy)
Hope Mirrlees (fantasy)
Peter S. Beagle (fantasy)
C. L. Moore (weird fiction & pulp SF)
Charles L. Harness (SF)
Gene Wolfe (SF & fantasy)
David Drake (military SF)
Francis Marion Crawford (weird fiction)
Dan Simmons (SF)
Mervyn Peake (fantasy)
Leigh Brackett (weird fiction & pulp SF)
Harry Harrison (SF)
George MacDonald (religious fantasy)
C. S. Lewis (religious fantasy & SF)
Tolkien (duh)
James H. Schmitz (SF)
John Steakley (SF)
Thorne Smith (fantasy)
Larry Niven (SF)
James White (SF)
The team of Niven & Pournelle (SF)
Fred Pohl (SF)
Evangeline Walton (fantasy)

30

Dangit, I forgot E. R. Eddison and Michael Moorcock (plus a bunch of others, have no doubt about that)

31

Of course, when evaluating Science Fiction, one must remember Sturgeon’s Law, first publicly aired in 1953 by its creator, science fiction writer Theodore Sturgeon, and is recounted on this site:

32

I thought it would be dishonest if I didn’t come in and plug the writer I got my handle from: Robin McKinley. I love her writing. She’s mostly done rewrites of fairy tales, plus some original fantasy. I recommend Deerskin, Rose Daughter, and Spindle’s End. They’re remakes of Donkeyskin, Beauty ad the Beast, and Briar Rose. My screen name is from Deerskin. I also have a cat named Aerin-sol, Lady Dragonkiller. We’re rabid McKinleyites in the Lissar household.

I really like Le Guin, too, although I’ve only read her Earthsea novels, The Telling, and the short story collection The Birthday of the World. I also love her essays on writing.

Also a strong recommendation for Philip Pullman’s Dark Materials trilogy, Susan Cooper’s The Dark is Rising series, and Garth Nix’s Old Kingdom trilogy Sabriel, Lirael, and Abhorsen. All of those are technically children’s books. They’re also fantastic.

Robert Jordan should either be forced to get a real editor, or to spend several hours locked in a room with some of his characters.

33

Here’s a slightly… ahem… enhanced version of The Eye of Argon. It’s a definite improvement on the original. Not that that’s hard or anything.

34

Doesn’t seem like a hijack – that’s what the OP, Screech, was looking for – recommendations.

Another Reason to read Gaiman’s novels:

I mentioned Gaiman’s novels, despite thinking them only decent overall, because of his broad appeal. American Gods, for example, got hyped quite a bit, and reached a wider, more mainstream, mostly appreciative audience.

And that audience includes, um, some of the literary chicks. So if you’re a single guy, who digs literary chicks …

Not sure if there’s Cliff Notes for Gaiman.

Oh, while I’m here, I’d second HH’s recommendation of Italo Calvino, and Borges … they fall into the literary category. (And you’ll find them in the “Literature” section of the bookstore.) Dunsany can be good for reading out loud, under certain circumstances.

35

Boy, you folks are thorough. I’ll be busy for awhile.

I appreciate all of the effort. I want to keep up my end of the conversation without folks around me falling on the floor laughing hysterically or verbally patting me on the head (“there, there…”). Like talking to a bunch of Cordon Bleu graduates and mentioning I found a nice little Italian restaurant called Olive Garden.

Okay, further discussion, if I may.

What is it about Piers Anthony’s works that some people hate so much and others worship as one step below Shakespeare? I’ve browsed through a couple of his books, read the 1st of the “Incarnations” (liked it), read the 1st of the Xanth (s’okay, kinda fell asleep through #2 and never got beyond that), and went on to other stuff. Is he of the hack school, or am I just not getting something about his work? This is an honest question - I know some people who absolutely adore his work, but other who would remove all traces of him from the bookshelves. Comments?

36

You’ll find that with almost any author, although I notice that it tends to happen more often with fantasy/sf authors than say crime novelists.

Also, I’d like to second the anthology reading. I saved myself a lot of time that way. To be sure though it’s a better indication of what someone was like at that point in their career - some will get better and some get more bloated, but I think it’s a valid indicator of whether or not you like the general style and sensibilities of a given author.

37

I’ll add that I read Neil Gaiman’s Neverwhere not too long ago and quite liked it; it struck me as The Real Deal and one of the better fantasies I’ve read recently. Gaiman created a fantasy world that felt real and non-cliched. And he wrote a story that was, simultaneously, both creepy and menacing and nightmarish, and genuinely funny. Not an easy thing to pull off. I must look into his other works.

And let me just mention one more author that I don’t think has been mentioned yet in this thread: Lloyd Alexander. Though it’s been a while since I’ve read them, and though they’re for kids, his five-volume Chronicles of Prydain is one of the first works that would spring to mind if I were asked to recommend something that had the same kind of appeal as Tolkien without being a Tolkien rip-off.

38

Long about the eigth or ninth Xanth novel, I got frustrated. I took one of Anthony’s books, and tore it into teeny tiny shreds, then threw the shreds all over my living room. I was finding them for months afterward, tucked behind cushions, and communing with dust bunnys in seldom visited corners. Every scrap I found, no matter how small, had the word Xanth imprinted on it. That’s bloat.

39

Why the love for Piers Anthony?

For a short answer, I’d say:
(1) teen appeal
(2) good trash
(3) Harry Potter

Why the hate? Same answers.

To, expand a bit …
Teen appeal – an early exposure to SF/F. The writing is accessible to an early teen. Perfectly clear and easy to follow. The stories unfold well. Things keep happening, the plot keeps moving. The characters are sympathetic, and have plenty of obstacles to overcome. The teen reader can follow the stream of consciousness, rooting for the hero. For further teen appeal, the obstacles are not only physical, but moral, ethical, even spiritual, and the hero tries to do the right thing. There’s love and sex, but not enough to get the books banned from junior high school libraries. And Anthony can be pretty imaginative, and humorous, too. Those Xanth stories, I think, had lots of clever cutesy magical stuff, just like Harry Potter, except probably better.

(And I’m sure there are, similarly, Harry Potter haters out there, but they keep quiet, because they don’t want to get clubbed in the head by Potter fans wielding HP #5? 6? 7?, which, at 9 zillion pages, is lethal.)

People read some Piers Anthony as teens, enjoy it immensely; and there some stay, while the more literary ones move on, and never go back. But who knows, maybe future generations will consider Shakespeare second only to Piers Anthony.

My two-word summary of his body of work, as I know it, would be good trash, and I’d mean that as a compliment. Note: I read only a small fraction of his output, and I think I missed his “bloat” years. That might be bad trash. But I bet some of those stories could be turned into good movies.

There is one essay where LeGuin approves of trash, of garbage, saying that sh-- is good fertilizer. And then, in contrast, heartily condemns faked-up artificial “plastic” stories, targeting Jonathan Livingston Seagull. (I’m not sure how’d she categorize Piers Anthony.) She also lavishes much love on Tolkien, Vance, and Dunsany for their language, and the speech of their characters. Like in Tolkien, not only is so-and-so the noble high king of wherever, a figure out of legend, in a mythic world, in an epic story, but he talks like it, too. And then she sort of disses Katherine Kurtz as an opposite example.

LeGuin – seldom a dull moment, intellectually.

40

I’m just going to pipe in here that I recently read Gateway by Frederik Pohl, and that was awesome.

…And I’m reading Gaiman’s American Gods now, and it’s pretty good. I think it’s a lot like his graphic novels. I’m entertained by it, and that’s good enough for me.

ZJ