Google to work with the NSA

From the Washington Post

What’s your take on this? Given the revelations of various spy activities (e.g., monitoring phone lines) and the intimate nature of the relationship, is there anything Google can do to enforce or monitor limits it places on NSA’s activities? Gmail, Googledocs, calendar, search history, etc. is a lot of private information to sift through. Granted, all that private information was willingly turned over to Google in the first place, so expectations may be a bit askew.

What resources does the NSA have that a partnership/coalition with various Web security enterprises/foundations don’t? Are things so dire such that the NSA’s involvement is absolutely necessary?

Will this change anything?

I don’t see why Google will have to hand over any private communications. Won’t it just be a matter of them looking at how Google’s networks are set up to better handle cyberattacks?

FWIW, the NSA have done something like this before. DES encryption was modified by them, and it was widely suspected (even by Diffie and Hellman) that they’d done it to weaken the algorithm. Only later, when academia rediscovered differential attacks did they realise that NSA had known about the technique all along, and made the algorithm stronger. I guess sometimes they really are just protecting the nation’s interests :stuck_out_tongue:

I am on the fence about this. I don’t think Google has to hand over any private communications, but I’m not sure they’d ever know. IANAH, but isn’t knowing the defense architecture a great bit of knowledge to have?

Not to get too tinfoily, mind you. I would hope that the potential public relations fallout would be so disastrous that any NSA manager would nix the idea of monkeying about without a thought. But as the NSA/article pointed out, since the goal is to stop an attack in progress, not chase down and identify the attacker, the odds of getting caught are likely small.

There’s certainly a lot the NSA could do that is good in this situation. My “buts” are: I don’t see what the NSA can bring to Google other than experience, Google already has a lot of developers/engineers it can throw at this. Experience cannot be discounted, but I am not sure that their particular expertise will assist Google. The other would be that I hope Google has told its employees precisely what data is ok to release to the NSA, and that the definition protects their customer’s privacy.

You know, I am a lot less worried about the NSA helping Google than Google helping the NSA. We know the government has huge scads of information gathered from ISPs and elsewhere. That is not paranoia talking, it was in the news and the Obama administration has even asked that we give a pass on those who forked over the data when it was likely illegal to do so. Google could help them actually make use of it.

While I would like it if we would apprehend would-be-terrorists before they can get to the air port (or water supply etc.), I am less sanguine about the rest of the data being used. Not just that I fear the government misusing it, but also the better indexed it is, the better those who bribe their way into access can exploit the information.

The paranoid side of me thinks like **Rhythmdvl **: I don’t think Google would fork over data willy nilly… but if you let information security experts map your entire system through and through, what’s to stop them from just waltzing in covertly afterwards ? It’s not like the NSA are novices when it comes to electronic breaking and entering.

I’m a bit leery about this, really. I don’t think the privacy of Americans will be invaded (Google and privacy activists will watch them like hawks about exactly this, and I dare hope the first infraction would bring down thunder on the NSA), but what about foreigners ? And what’s their recourse, should it turn out the NSA has been casually snooping on them ?

I used google earth and zoomed in on my front door. That was a little unnerving. I know they are watching cyber criminals and have been for some time. A guy in my town ordered some kiddy porn on line from outside the country. The Feds intercepted and arrested him and he is in Federal Prison.

I would not use a computer for any illegal activities. Even just surfing you have to be careful of certain words or phrases because of the bots. There are lots of folks going to jail because of what is on their hard drives. If you use a computer at work with internet access this would also be a consideration. I was reading that a high school student that had access to the schools network caught the principal surfing porn after hours.

I wonder if my phone line which is connected to my modem can be hacked? I have on line voice mail?

Inherently logical. Perfectly reasonable in the interests of our nation’s security.

Not so sure I’m comfortable with government money paying for part of Google’s security problems. Google is cool, but they are not a national security issue unless they’ve got some black world defense projects in the works or something…

NSA has technical capabilities beyond anyone’s comprehension (unless you’ve worked there). You can only imagine what they have and the technologies available to them.

From the article, it seems that Google went to NSA, not the other way around. But they can’t hide anything once NSA gets in there. They should be prepared to have their guts open. But that is only to stop a national security issue… if Google contacted NSA, that means they can’t solve the problem on their own.

I wouldn’t worry about NSA spying on you. They already collect vast amounts of data that search for keywords. Your cell phone call to your wife, husband, or mistress isn’t of any interest to them. Either is your interest in porn.

For the amount of stuff they control, and the information they do business with, the NSA should be involved.

How do you get rid of the Google cookie?

I am pretty sure that I can comprehend the tech that the NSA has and is capable of. They are signals agents, not wizards. This is not even rocket science, much less magic. Seriously, I have seen the boxes that the FBI places in a data center to monitor someone. It’s cool, but I could build a box that did the exact same thing. I’ve seen naughty customers and their crackers on poorly configured networks turn their boxes into the same thing without having to build the cabling.

They are so powerful because they have the access that being the nation’s listening post brings, not because they are using some advanced technology that I haven’t heard of. They could be useful to Google in this instance because they might have seen this type of break in before, but that’s far from certain. I’d be really, really sad if they had seen it because an NSA employee’s own copy of IE6 had been compromised. Just as sad as I was when a support agent I know hit a customers compromised site and got his workstation owned. But, I don’t know of the NSA operating as a consultancy service cleaning up hacks, and I wouldn’t get the average cracker (technical description, not a racist term) to clean up a box that I was in charge of that had been compromised, because it’s a different problem. I suppose that what I am trying to say is: The NSA spends its time listening because of its privileged position, not because it spends its time cleaning up systems after someone naughty has been in them, so I am not sure what they have to offer here.

On the other side of that argument, I am not sure who else they would turn to. Most law agencies seem pretty far behind when concerned with computer security issues. I don’t know of any security consultants that aren’t a waste of money, and everyone I know that I would think competent to track down such a hack has something in their past that makes employers generally wary. The NSA at least has some experience with the problem, and are an entity that you can go after via legal means if they do something that goes beyond the pale.

I’m not too concerned with the NSA mapping Google’s system, network, whatever and getting in again afterward. If they wanted to do that, they could have gotten in through the same method the Chinese came in through in the past, and if sufficiently determined, could find a new way in the future. Google shouldn’t have to turn over anyone’s search history, or very little of their own private data. The should be able to turn over the compromised systems (actually, they just need to hand over copies of them) to the NSA for examination, as the production systems should have been rebuilt from scratch and replaced. Since the machines that were initially compromised were running Internet Explorer, I seriously doubt it was a server.

What I am scared of ( but totally lack any evidence of) is that Google’s employees will turn over data by accident or agreement due to the amount of contact they will have through the NSA with this. Familiarity can make people do strange things, but that’s all I have to work with to fuel that fear.

I have an ex co-worker that was arrested and brought to trial by an FBI agent that actually engineered hardware and software to eavesdrop on a modem connection. It is generally accepted that any computer that is connected to a network can be broken into at least to the extent that data can be stolen from it. Some claim that merely being on is enough, but I sometimes doubt this half of the claim. The game is to make the barriers to getting the data difficult enough that the attacker will move on to another target.

To delete the Google cookie will depend on your browser. In all seriousness, I’d search Google to find out.

Thanks! I will keep looking. It is supposedly very hard to get rid of. I have Vista Home Edition. It does make sense that if my phone is plugged into my modem the info is there. I have nothing to hide but was curious. I was just reading a similar story of a woman in the next town who was arrested following a two year old sting out of MA on child porn. Her IP address showed up and she is guilty until proven otherwise. Scary.

I watch Criminal Minds and they harvest data on people like nobodies business. If someone comes up to you and flips a badge saying FBI are you not going to give them the information? I would…

No, you don’t. FBI agents are cops. They do not take people to trial. They sometimes testify at trials. The decision to take the guy to trial was made by a lawyer, and the case was tried by a lawyer.

So if the FBI shows up at my door it is just treated as if they are a town cop? Thanks for clarifying that. There is something intimidating about FBI agents.

Well…sorta, but not really. They’re enforcing federal laws, and aren’t going to be passing out speeding tickets or responding to domestic abuse calls or anything like that. From what I understand, some of them do have law degrees, but they don’t function as lawyers.

Meh, he was investigated and arrested by him, then. He wouldn’t have been brought to trial without the cop. That wasn’t the relevant half of the sentence, and I think that you understood what I meant, didn’t ya? I sure hope you didn’t think I was claiming he used the eavesdropping device in the courtroom, that’d be silly.