Gore Speech, April 13, 2002

Well, given the incumbents vacating the seats in those two districts, my guess is that Sam Stone might be able to get elected in either one but I wouldn’t have a prayer in either!

That 2000 acres number is a rather deceiving number for a few reasons:

(1) There’s some very creative accounting involved. Here’s some info from Union of Concerned Scientists on what this number really means:

(2) You quote acreage for the total ANWR reserve but only a part of it is the coastal plain. Also, 95% of the coastal plain resides outside ANWR and is unprotected.

Even if we could drill in ANWR without causing severe environmental damage, there is still the question of whether it is good policy. The main problem with oil is not that there ain’t enough of it but the bad consequences associated with becoming addicted to it, particularly at the wasteful levels that we are, in terms of global warming, pollution, etc. Furthermore, the amount of oil that could be produced from there over a 50 year time period is miniscule on the scale of what could be achieved by small conservation measures over that same period. Modest conservation measures could save as much oil as is likely to be economically recoverable there practically even before it starts to flow.

By the way, while you are correct that the Teamsters support drilling, it has been a conservative union for quite some time now. And, I believe I heard that the group of Teamsters who are opposed to the current son-of-Hoffa leadership are not in favor. Also, only one of the two native groups in the region is in favor while the other is opposed. Finally, it is not clear that the Republicans even do have a majority in the Senate for drilling in ANWR; they might or might not, and there is a lot of arm-twisting going on by the Administration, hence the need for a filibuster.

Jshore: Let’s not micromanage the details here. I just want to see we the boundaries of our philosophical liines are, so that we can see whether there is even a possibility of a compromise on these matters, or a ‘middle position’ that we could all rally around.

First, let me give you the argument that you should be using against people who generally don’t agree with you: national security. Forget the environment - it’s clear that the gulf between the environmentalists and the skeptics is too wide for them to compromise on that. But the skeptics are also interested in maintaining the U.S.'s energy independence, so there is a new common ground.

Let me tell you the deal I would offer you right now:
[ul]
[li]No drilling in ANWR unless some emergency threshold kicks in, so that it can be used when the day comes that we really need it, but not before then.[/li][li]Fix the regulatory regime that has halted development of nuclear power. Build enough nuclear plants (even if they need some startup subsidy) to replace the oil consumed by the few electrical plants that use Oil. Plus, enough nuclear plants to cover the added demand from converting 20% of our vehicles to electricity. I’m not going to work the numbers right now, but it’s an easy enough calculation to figure out.[/li][li]Approve Yucca Mountain and start moving waste into it. If we’re going to build more nuclear plants, we should get this done.[/li][li]An increase in petroleum taxes in yearly increments, such that the price of oil is projected to increase to more than today’s cost of major alternatives like wind and solar within 50 years. So if the costs of wind and solar keep coming down, we’ll actually cross the threshold much sooner, at maybe 10 or 20 years. And then you’ll see a widespread adoption of them.[/li][li]Forget the CAFE standards increase. Not only is it very anti-consumer, but it causes distortions in the marketplace and puts an excess burden on auto manufacturers. Besides, the CAFE will continue to increase anyway as the price of gas increases from our tax and people opt for more fuel efficient vehicles. Also, as hybrid-electric technology and pure electric technology get better and better, they become more competitive with conventional cars. Hell, give me an electric Miata that generates whopping torque at 0 RPM, gets 300 miles on a charge, does 0-60 in six seconds and goes 140mph, and I’ll buy one tomorrow. [/li][li]The taxes from fuel will be allocated directly into research and development for alternative energy, and/or direct subsidies to alternative energy generation or fuel efficient vehicles.[/li][/ul]

What do you say? Deal?

Jshore: Let’s not micromanage the details here. I just want to see we the boundaries of our philosophical liines are, so that we can see whether there is even a possibility of a compromise on these matters, or a ‘middle position’ that we could all rally around.

First, let me give you the argument that you should be using against people who generally don’t agree with you: national security. Forget the environment - it’s clear that the gulf between the environmentalists and the skeptics is too wide for them to compromise on that. But the skeptics are also interested in maintaining the U.S.'s energy independence, so there is a new common ground.

Let me tell you the deal I would offer you right now:
[ul]
[li]No drilling in ANWR unless some emergency threshold kicks in, so that it can be used when the day comes that we really need it, but not before then.[/li][li]Fix the regulatory regime that has halted development of nuclear power. Build enough nuclear plants (even if they need some startup subsidy) to replace the oil consumed by the few electrical plants that use Oil. Plus, enough nuclear plants to cover the added demand from converting 20% of our vehicles to electricity. I’m not going to work the numbers right now, but it’s an easy enough calculation to figure out.[/li][li]Approve Yucca Mountain and start moving waste into it. If we’re going to build more nuclear plants, we should get this done.[/li][li]An increase in petroleum taxes in yearly increments, such that the price of oil is projected to increase to more than today’s cost of major alternatives like wind and solar within 50 years. So if the costs of wind and solar keep coming down, we’ll actually cross the threshold much sooner, at maybe 10 or 20 years. And then you’ll see a widespread adoption of them.[/li][li]Forget the CAFE standards increase. Not only is it very anti-consumer, but it causes distortions in the marketplace and puts an excess burden on auto manufacturers. Besides, the CAFE will continue to increase anyway as the price of gas increases from our tax and people opt for more fuel efficient vehicles. Also, as hybrid-electric technology and pure electric technology get better and better, they become more competitive with conventional cars. Hell, give me an electric Miata that generates whopping torque at 0 RPM, gets 300 miles on a charge, does 0-60 in six seconds and goes 140mph, and I’ll buy one tomorrow. [/li][li]The taxes from fuel will be allocated directly into research and development for alternative energy, and/or direct subsidies to alternative energy generation or fuel efficient vehicles.[/li][/ul]

What do you say? Deal?

Sorry for the simulpost. Moderators, feel free to kill with ruthlessness. The message, that is.

In the spirit of the general question, Sam, I would say that I think there is some sort of compromise position we could reach and that your latest outline of it comes fairly close. Of course, I think it is inevitable that each of us on either side will keep pushing form things more to our liking, but as a sort of “compromise bill” we could pass, I think we could probably do better than Congress [both House and Senate] has…which admittedly isn’t saying much!

Also, I am sort of assuming here that you are leaving political considerations out of the equation. For example, even if I could be convinced to go with a gas tax in place of CAFE standards as a compromise position, I might still want to continue supporting CAFE standards as a position that is more likely to work in the political climate.

Anyway, now, on the more micromanaging side, I would like to comment on each of your proposals. First, two points to inform the discussion and where I am coming from on it:

(1) Last week, I attended a 2-day conference held by the NY Section of the American Physical Society on “Energy and Environment”. Many of the speakers were from different energy industries, some were academics.

(2) Current electricity generation in the U.S. can be broken down as follows:
coal 52%
natural gas 16%
oil 3% [having fallen from 17% in 1973]
nuclear 20%
hydroelectric 8%
other renewables 2%

[quote]

[li]No drilling in ANWR unless some emergency threshold kicks in, so that it can be used when the day comes that we really need it, but not before then.[/li][/quote]

I would say simply “ANWR remains with its current protected status”. This leaves to the future the possibility of revisiting the issue. I am against putting in any threshhold now and, needless to say, I think we should never need it.

[quote]

[li]Fix the regulatory regime that has halted development of nuclear power. Build enough nuclear plants (even if they need some startup subsidy) to replace the oil consumed by the few electrical plants that use Oil. Plus, enough nuclear plants to cover the added demand from converting 20% of our vehicles to electricity. I’m not going to work the numbers right now, but it’s an easy enough calculation to figure out.[/li][/quote]

I don’t know what you mean by the “regulatory regime that has halted development of nuclear power.” I think it is important to keep nuclear power strongly regulated for our safety. I certainly don’t think we’ve erred on the side of too much safety, although there always admittedly might be more efficient ways to regulate to the same level of safety.

At the above-mentioned conference, there were two speakers on nuclear power…both strongly pro-nuclear…one from Entergy (a nuclear power company) and the other Cornell. Neither made the claim that regulation was what was what was preventing more plants from being built. In fact, the only thing the guy from Entergy said was something like, “Nuclear energy is very tightly regulated by the government, as it should be.” Even if you read what the industry mouthpiece Nuclear Energy Institute has to say on regulation ( http://www.nei.org/doc.asp?catnum=4&catid=125 ), while encouraging regulations to evolve with time, it refrains from really criticizing them now, let alone making any claims of the sort that you seemed to imply.

Finally, as I noted above, the reason why nuclear power plants are continuing to be built in France is not that it is cheaper there but that the fossil fuel alternatives are considerably more expensive. So, while I will not necessarily oppose your idea of some (additional) effective subsidization of nuclear, I think it is important to make sure it is only at the expense of environmentally destructive alternatives like fossil fuels.

[quote]

[li]Approve Yucca Mountain and start moving waste into it. If we’re going to build more nuclear plants, we should get this done.[/li][/quote]

I’m not real up on the Yucca Mt. debate enough to be sure, but from what I know, I am inclined to agree with you in that there probably ain’t a really better alternative to dealing with the waste we have. However, the transport of the wastes there is something where we cannot afford to skimp on safety and security. (A dollar spent there will go a lot further for security than a dollar spent on NMD!)

[quote]

[li]An increase in petroleum taxes in yearly increments, such that the price of oil is projected to increase to more than today’s cost of major alternatives like wind and solar within 50 years.[/li][/quote]

This is a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison since, at least until we have fully electric or fuel cell cars, wind and solar really fill a different market than the mobile vehicles market filled by oil. You have to bring coal and natural gas into the equation. Also, I am not sure this is aggressive enough in the case of wind, which is apparently already becoming competitive (with the small subsidy that it currently has) in many markets. Solar, admittedly, is still only competitive in very niche markets. I also think that the amount of taxation should be informed partly on the basis of target results like you do here and partly on the basis of some rough assessment of externalities.

[quote]

[li]Forget the CAFE standards increase. Not only is it very anti-consumer, but it causes distortions in the marketplace and puts an excess burden on auto manufacturers. [/li][/quote]

Well, my head is still spinning from reading the comparison of various alternative versions of CAFE standards and other alternatives, like gas taxes, in the NAS report. (See this chapter: http://books.nap.edu/books/0309076013/html/83.html ) The issues are complex and I am not quite willing to concede the point that a few tax is necessarily better (although I would probably accept one as a compromise). There are various ways in which CAFE standards may better correct some distortions that already exist in the marketplace (like people not calculating the cost to own a car with lower fuel economy, or worse yet, manufacturers not even offering consumers options that would save them money because the manufacturers don’t think they would sell as well). By the way, for consumers like me personally, the CAFE standards would improve our lot by giving us a lot more vehicle choice than we have now.

Sounds good. I seem to recall that the economics is that each penny of tax raises close to $1 billion in revenue (maybe $800 million is a better estimate), so I think there is room here to also give back some of the money in the form of a tax break to low-income people, who would bear the brunt of a fuel tax.

Perhaps not the best example, but I’m pretty sure you know what I mean… the idea of “special interests” being ethnic, racial, class or religious groups looking for a handout and recognition of collective rights. The term “special interests” is certainly associated with right-wing criticism of the left, at least last time I checked.

Jshore: Okay, it sounds like we’re pretty close.

How about any other lurkers out there chiming in? Hopefully we’ll hear from someone from the right and the left and see if we can hammer out a compromise that the denizens of the SDMB could buy into.

The short answer is tons. And your belief that all high level waste remains at the plants is incorrect. The material for nuclear weapons comes from reactors. The material is then shipped to where ever the weapons are built(Rocky Flats?) and then the weapons were shipped to where ever they were deployed. Also the Waste Isolation Pilot Project (WIPP) in New Mexico has been running for a while.

You missed my point. Gore brought up the fact that nuclear waste would be shipped across the country to try and scare people. He should and probably did know that it has been going on for years. I don’t know the exact tonnage that has been shipped but I know it is a large amount. I’ll ask me Dad on Sunday though he can probably only give an educated guess. He retired about 6 years ago so he isn’t up on the situation but he has a good idea of how these things work.

Slee

Also, he talked about the risk of “spending the Social Security surplus.” In fact, the government has alway spends the SS surplus. What else would they do with it? Bury it?

One hopes that Gore’s statment is demogoguery rather than ignorance.

I’ve been away from the boards for a couple of weeks and, in the process of reviewing some posts that I had been participating in, I stumbled on this at the top of my screen:

The author was not visible (off the top of the screen) and yet I knew immediately that this message was written by a conservative. Why is that?

[sub]Hopefully I’m not being too presumptious of Mr. Stone’s political leaning.[/sub]

Politically it’s between a rock and a hard place.

Raising taxes on gasoline sounds nifty, but causes commensurate increases in the price of everything’; which is passed (again) onto the backs of consumers. The entire world economy (not just US) depends on a steady flow of petroleum products. Anything that interferes with, or even appears to interfere with this supply causes shock waves throughout the world.

Obviously, the answer is a variation on the “Nuke their Ass and Take the Gas” foreign policy. While no big fan of the UN, some sort of global international agreements should be employed at the middle east oil fields, and set the price at say, 2 dollars a barrel, like it or lump it. The oil companies would stay rich and we’d all have a steady supply of this vital product. The resource is far too important to leave in the hands of a bunch of wackos.

Nah, I’m not a conservative, at least not in the ‘Republican party’ sense. I’m more of a Libertarian-leaning economic conservative, and social liberal. With a healthy pro-science skeptical-inquirer kind of streak.

What was it about that sentence that shouted ‘conservative’ to you?

Nah, I’m not a conservative, at least not in the ‘Republican party’ sense. I’m more of a Libertarian-leaning economic conservative, and social liberal. With a healthy pro-science skeptical-inquirer kind of streak.

What was it about that sentence that shouted ‘conservative’ to you?

I don’t consider “conservative” and “Republican” to be in any way synonymous. I, likewise, am Libertarian-leaning though it has been recently brought to my attention that I may be more compatible with the Constitution Party.

What said “conservative” in your post? In a word, open-mindedness. You were interested in input from both the left and the right. I know that is contrary to conventional wisdom, but my experience has been that conservatives I have encountered are far more open-minded than the liberals I’ve met. Funny that.

Here is an article with a similar message regarding journalism:
http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz051002.asp

By the way, sorry about hijacking this thread. I’m done now.

Sam, I hope I didn’t sully your reputation by calling you a conservative. I meant it in the nicest way. :slight_smile:

CHOKE

You might want to look up what the words “Liberal” and “Conservative” mean, flex. And perhaps also more carefully consider your sources, as the National Review is a right-wing mouthpiece. Might as well get your all political opinions from The Nation or something. :wink:

While I can understand and appreciate libertarian thought even if I don’t agree with it much, the redefinition of liberalism into an insult is one of the most nauseating aspects of current American politics.

Addendum: that particular article actually addresses an issue I’ve noted as an increasing problem online, which is the insularity of ideologically-based websites. The “rebuttal” of republic.com in that article is rather sad and threadbare (partisan frothing about “the enemy” does not a vigorous debate make), and the simple-minded demonization of modern liberalism only goes to show how bad partisan namecalling can get, and how out-of-touch (aside from reinterpreting possibly credible arguments to fit predetermined talking points) this insularity can make otherwise intelligent people.

Uh, I didn’t get that opinion from NRO. The opinion, as I stated, came from personal experience. I only mentioned the article because it had a similar theme and I had just read it that morning.

I read many publications, online and off, liberal and conservative (and in-between). I enjoy having conversations and debates with people of all political persuasions, but conservatives (in my personal experience) tend to debate factually with honest consideration of all sides. Liberals (also in my personal experience) tend to quickly degenerate into name calling, shutting down the conversation. I see this on the SDMB as well where the rare conservative opinion is usually quickly rewarded with a nasty insult (an exception comes to mind - a recent, enjoyable, debate with jshore). I’m sure you will deny this, and that’s fine as I have no personal stake in the issue, but it’s a personal observation that is re-confirmed frequently.

No different than “right wing” as an insult. By the way, how did that come up? I didn’t use liberalism as any kind of insult in my post. In reality I did, regrettably, imply that being called a conservative might be considered an insult, however, so your response seems strange to me.