Raped at the pump again - when will it end? What can we do?

Great Debates
1

I’m fucking sick of this shit.

I suspect you are too.

I’m not here to complain though - I’d go to the pit if all I wanted to do was rant. I want a discussion. Unfortunately for me, I don’t know anything about the economics of oil, nor do I have a good understanding of how that relates to the war in Iraq. I heard a lot of people saying “no blood for oil” and claiming that this war was a means of getting more oil. How can that be? If it were true, then where is the oil?!

I don’t really want a debate about the rightness or wrongness of the Iraq war, because there are enough of those already. I want to know first, is there going to be an end to this insane gas price? Is the “bubble” going to burst? Is it only going to get worse from here? It seems like that may be the case.

What are we going to do about this? I hear about hydrogen cars, “gasohol,” biodiesel, fuel cells, solar panels, shale oil - where the hell is all this stuff, besides on the Internet and on the news? It ought to be widely available, and encouraged.

I’ve seen maps of the proposed area that they want to drill in the A.N.W.R. in Alaska, and it doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. Why don’t they just do it? Of all the things I’ve said here, this might get me some flack from environmentalists, but I really think it would be better to sacrifice some tundra for the sake of cheaper gas for everyone. Obviously, they should STILL be working on alternative sources of energy, but for 20 years of cheaper gasoline, I say, screw the caribou, and give me the gas.

The other night I was watching the scene in my favorite movie, Mad Max, where the biker gang hijacks the gas tanker and steals the gasoline, and I thought, “2 more years.” In 2 more years we will be seeing that happening. It’s only reasonable. People are sick of being raped at the pump - I desperately hope that this situation causes a modern day Boston Tea Party, and that people in their anger will find some way of rising up and doing something about it (politically.) I mean, this is really insane.

I don’t know anything about the economics of gasoline, the forces in the government (and OPEC) who are regulating it, or anything like that. When it comes to economics, I’m just Joe Sixpack. So is the rest of the country’s population, good or bad. I know everyone is fed up with this. What are we going to do? Will it ever end?

2

OK. First environmentalist into the fray.

I know you’re upset but, the oil in A.N.W.R. is not enough to make a big dent in prices vs the environmental impact.
Collectively Americans need to start buying Fuel efficient cars to reduce demand.
If anyone is buying a new car, look into the Hybrids.
If you live in an apartment and your lease is nearly up, look into moving for a shorter commute.
Look for public transportation.
Look for a carpool.

Finally A.N.W.R. should be retained for a final oil reserve for the US Government for a bigger crisis then my Gas was $2.59 per gallon today.

The very high price is good for the long term security of the USA. It will encourage reduced consumption and oil money does fuel terrorism. Remember 9/11 was brought to us by Saudi Oil money. Bin Laden is the Black Sheep of the Saudi Royalty. Where do you think his money comes from?

BTW, I went through this entire litany myself today as I paid $24.00 dollar to fill up my little crappy Focus that cost $12.00 to fill just 3 years ago.

3

What are you talking about? America has some of the cheapest gas prices in the world. America and the middle east. America because of it’s global economic hegemony and the middle east because that’s where the oil is.

The people who are getting ripped off are the people in the rest of the world - Europe, Asia, Africa.

4

The only real solution is to build a viable mass transit system.

No amount of technology will change the fact that there are simply too many of us for personal transportation to be a workable system. It is without argument the most wasteful and inefficient way to get around. It will not be an easy transition. We will need to spend a lot of money, change our lifestyles a lot, and rethink how we build and rebuild our communities. But it is one that is coming sooner than later for people in populated areas. At this point it’s simply a question of how long we draw out the process and how painful the solution gets.

5

When will it end? When all the money is gone.
What can “we” do? Absolutely nothing. The percentage of people that will give up convenience for a good cause isn’t large enough to make a difference. On the other hand, you can directly affect how much you pay at the pump. What kind of mileage does your vehicle get? Would you be willing to get by with a car that had fewer conveniences but higher milage? Do you belong to a carpool? How often do you use public transportation? How far are you willing to walk?
IMHO, if you are doing your best to conserve fuel, then you are doing enough.

6

If you want these technologies to come into everyday use, what are you doing about it? Until you strart lobbying your senator for biodiesel, start driving a hybrid car, until you buy some solar cells to heat your house or unless you invest in an oil shale comapny, maybe you could ride the bus to work or you could set the AC to a less brutal coldness. Until you strart to take some responsibiluty, then what do you expect?

You can’t simply post a message on a a message board and expect someone else to come up with a solution.

7

The price of gas is high primarily because the price of crude is high. The price of crude is high because demand is growing very rapidly (see: China, India) while production looks to be close to maxed out. Supply and demand, basic economics. Moreover, there is moderate to extreme political instability in several major oil producing countries, from the impending civil war in Iraq to the political upheaval surrounding Chavez to the succession of King Abdullah to the Saudi throne. These last three are temporary states of affairs (hopefully), and their easing could result in oil prices dropping substantially. Maybe. Or maybe demand is simply growing too rapidly and we’re too close to Peak Oil. Hard to say. In any event, oil prices that are a bit artificially high right now aren’t a bad thing in the long run. They’ll stimulate development of alternative technologies which will hopefully soften the difficulties when we are eventually forced to transition from using oil as our primary liquid fuel.

ANWR is too small to matter in these equations.

The Canadian tar sands are coming into production in a very big way, but production from that source is extremely capital-intensive, and isn’t likely to grow fast enough to outstrip growing demand.

Most alternative energy sources are still more expensive than your 3 buck gasoline. That’s why they aren’t available - are you willing to pay even more than you’re paying for gas in order to avoid paying so much for gas? Didn’t think so.

8

There’s only so much the government can do. Think about it. Is there any oil importing country anywhere in the world that keeps the price of gas “reasonable”? Don’t you think someone would have figured out how to do this if it were possible?

Economics. One thing that is important to understand is that the market for fuel is a worldwide market. Sure we in the US consume more per capita than most (all?) other countries, but if we try to keep the price below (world) market levels, more of the fuel will go elsewhere and we’ll have shortages. What does the government typically do then? Rationing. I did live thru the gas shortages of the 70s and I remember waking up at 3am to move my car into line at the local gas station, then walking back home to continue sleeping until the station openned up. You couldn’t buy more gas even if you **wanted **to-- the lines were the limitting factor.

But we Americans are just too used to not thinking about the cost of gas. We buy whatever car looks the coolest or goes the fastest or holds the most number of kids at any one time. There are so many things individuals can do to reduce gas consumption that it’s ridiculous. Car pool one day per week = 10% reduction in commuting costs. Ride your bike for short trips. Don’t drive to the store to pick up one gallon of milk. Turn the thermostat down (or up in the summer) at night. And for God’s sake when you buy your next car, but guel efficiecy at or near the top of your list of “must haves”. There is nothing sacred about cheap gas-- we’ve just been lucky for a long time that it was.

But the last thing you want to do is artificially hold the price of gas down. The price of an item is what tells you how much of it you should use. Once you remove pricing info from the market, no one knows whether an item is abundant or rare, except when you simply can’t find any at all. The higher the price of gas, the more motivated entrepenurers are going to be to find alternate fuels or alternate engine designs for burning less fuel.

If there are anti-competitive practices by some oil companies, by all means nail them on this. But you don’t have a “right” to buy gas at a cheap price. Things change, and when the market price goes up that’s the market telling you to use less if you don’t want to spend more. It really is that simple.

9

You’re not being raped. You’re finally paying a half-way reasonable price for a non-renewable resource. Get used to it or reduce your demand for it.

10

The same could be said of almost anything. Food too expensive? Eat less. Taxes too high? Spend less money. Real estate too much? Get a small apartment.

The convenience is part of the package here. The average person is not going to give it up.

11

By the way, I absolutely agree that people ought to do what they can to conserve gas. Some towns are more difficult to do this in than others - we have a lot of urban sprawl areas around the midwest where biking isn’t as easy. I’m fortunate enough to live in a town where it is. Also I’m about to start school - therefore, the use of a car won’t be neccessary.

I’m trying to speak for the average American here. I don’t think the average American is going to do what is best. They will do what is most convenient.

12

I’m againest ANWR drilling but not because I’m worried about Carbiou. I’ve read that there’s enough Oil in ANWR to supply US Oil needs for a month at most. That’s not going to make much of a dent. Frankly, I’d rather that oil was held in reserve for the military or some kind of national emergency, not just because you want to save a few cents at the pump.

13

Nice idea, but completely impractical. You’d need to shoot seismic lines, do some exploratory drilling, set up infrastructure and then begin developing the fields (if they in fact exist). That’s at best a two (more realistically five) year project).

14

Yeah they are. Not willingly perhaps, but they are, sooner or later.

15

I disagree. Nobody will give up the convenience, willingly or not. I see the logical (and hopeful) outcome of this situation (with optimism) as being that people will eventually use different kinds of fuel or different kinds of engines.

They will not give up the independence and convenience that a motorized vehicle affords. They will not give up the seating they want, the comfort they want, or the style they want. Anyone who denies the place of automobiles in American (and Australian) society is blind. Cars are here to stay.

Western society does not make sacrifices regarding convenience or comfort. That went out with the end of World War II. We will eventually find a way to have the cars we want with different forms of energy.

16

Don’t forget, people thought muscle cars and land yachts went out in favor of small economy cars. Now we have the SUV - who woulda thought?

17

wow.Rape used to mean a horrible act of violence,now it means paying more for gas than one wants.

18

I just paid 96p ($1.74) for a litre (0.26 US gallons) of diesel (ie. $6.59 per gallon).

I’m happy. You must be overjoyed.

19

Exactly. Argent Towers wouldn’t know from “expensive gas” if he was soaked in it and had a match put to him :rolleyes:

20

World prices: http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

Welcome to reality,** Argent Towers**.