In the show, Harrenhall looks like a mess. Burned buildings, messes everywhere, HUGE rebuilding project. So why does Lord Baelish seem to get a boner every time it’s offered to him?
The title automatically raises him to the nobility, which he wasn’t before. Plus, it does include lands and they do produce income. It’d be kind of like being made Earl of Southeast Kansas: it’s not the richest or the most prestigious place, but it’s an Earldom no less in a land where you’re hamstrung in how powerful you can be and what marital alliances you can make if you don’t have a legitimate and hereditary title and lands of some sort (even if most of your money comes from brothels).
Isn’t the lord of Harrenhal supposed to be the paramount noble of the Riverlands? The Tullys only held that position because Harrenhal had been lordless. So Littlefinger not only becomes a first rank lord, but also gets a claim to be in charge of the Riverlands (while at the same time controlling the leader of the Vale).
Just so we’re clear: is this a book thread, or a no-spoilers TV thread?
Hadn’t thought of that, sorry show watchers for the spoiler in my post.
It’s not really a spoiler since it is not actually right.
While many of the buildings are not in the best repair, Harrenhal itself is a solid castle. It’s not easy to siege and can be used as a staging ground for armies. And all the natural routes for armies from the North, the Vale, the Riverlands, and King’s Landing all funnel towards that area. Of course, that’s another reason it keeps changing hands.
This is the key. Remember in European medieval society the two most important things were:
1.) Prestige/Status
2.) Land
In exactly that order. The young prince Henry, later Henry I of England, bitterly lamented his inheritance as youngest son which was a massive pile of cash. From his POV this was a kick in the teeth as just being rich was, if not worthless, a hell of a step down from true nobility. One the first thing he did was use that money to buy a substantial fief in Normandy from his oldest brother. Money without land or title made one no better than some merchant.
And prestige/status always trumped land. It was always better in the medieval mindset to be an impoverished earl than a wealthy baron. Status conveyed power, access to power and personal respect.
Baelish already has money and held a prestigious office. But like William de la Pole, a financier whose descendants went on to become earls and then dukes of Suffolk, money is a springboard to title. And a title, even a crappy one, is worth more than any hoard of gold.
In one of the later books, Baelish explains his exact reasons for wanting Harrenhal (and for doing a lot of other intriguing things) to Sansa.
Yep I looked it up and you’re right, I was wrong on that point. Spoilered for the show watchers:
While Harren, the builder of Harrenhal was lord of the Riverlands, the Tullys have held that title since Aegon’s conquest. The lordship[ of Harrenhal gives no claim to overlordship of the Riverlands at all.
Yes, but it all comes back to the points Tamerlane raised. The specific reason he wanted Harrenhal was so he could accomplish something else, which was so he could accomplish something else.
It’s a title of nobility, which is worth more than any mere pile of money.
It has lands attached that–under proper management and not ravaged by war–become a source of money.
Without a title of nobility Littlefinger is just a powerful servant of some noble or another and he can be dismissed or destroyed at whim. Of course just having the title doesn’t automatically confer respect. Earning a title is sleazy and unseemly, inheriting it is the correct way.
I thought that Littlefinger was already a noble; it’s just that he’s only lord of a little strip of land out in the Fingers (hence his nickname). As in, only a small tower, a few dozen sheep, and a fraction as many peasants. Harrenhall would be a huge step up for him, but he’s already on the better side of of the nobility/smallfolk line.
He was a “small lord,” but not from a family that was considered well born, so not a real nobleman, not someone that any well-born lord would let his daughter marry.
Right, from descriptions ( a small stone keep, a few unproductive acres of land on an exposed peninsula ) his family is sort of like landed gentry - a baronet or some such. A definite step above the common folk, but more or less at the bottom of the heap amongst non-commoners. Acquiring Harrenhall and its appurtenances is a bit like jumping from a landed knight to a count/earl.
I think calling Littlefinger a “small lord” is about like calling someone a “minor Senator” in a lot of ways.
You basically have the King, then the six major lords (I’ll name the castles): Winterfell, Riverrun, Highgarden, Storm’s End, Pyke and the Eyrie.
Below them you have their Lords Bannermen- for example, in the North, Houses Glover, Tallhart, Bolton, Manderly, Mormont, Flint, Norrey, Umber and Hornwood (there are probably a few more) owe fealty to Winterfell.
Not all the Lords Bannermen (or major Lords, for that matter) are created equally though; it’s clear from the books that the Mormonts aren’t particularly rich at all, being lords of a cold forested island, while the Manderlys are pretty well off, since they are in charge of the one major port in the North. These guys have keeps and castles.
Below the Lords Bannermen are a bunch of knights who owe fealty to the Lords Bannermen. They tend to have holdfasts and lesser keeps, and control much smaller areas- they’re the real local nobility and lords of the manor (to use an Earth term).
There are hedge knights, who are men who have been created knights, but who aren’t from noble families, or who have no lands/manor of their own. They’re just a hair above peasants in terms of their titles, but in practice, it’s probably better to be a well off non-noble merchant or craftsman in Westeros than it is to be a hedge knight.
Littlefinger is technically a Lord Bannerman to the Eyrie, because the Fingers are part of the Vale. However, he’s about the poorest Lord Bannerman that there is, from what I can gather.
For him to end up as Lord of Harrenhal, he’s going from maybe being the equivalent of a Baronet or maybe Baron, to something more in the ballpark of a Marquis or possibly Duke.
Sorry, should have made it known that I was referring to the TV series (I have only read the first 2 books, and those I read a while ago). What you’re all saying makes sense, especially as as springboard for Baelish to use to accomplish more; as he said to Roz and the dark girl when he was “training” them: He wants it ALL, and he’s patient enough to work his way up one step at a time. Thanks!
I’m sure that the fact that he was snubbed as a youngin’ for being not noble enough to be even considered as a match for the Tully girls sparks quite a bit of his ambition.
I see Baelish’s position as more of a “lord of the manor” or local landed gentry.
He’s the richest guy in his own neighborhood and is owed rent by a handful of people who treat him as if he were a big deal, but in the eyes of someone with an actual peerage or hereditary title, he’s basically a nobody.
So I would say that before Harrenhall, he was much, much lower than a baron, and Harrenhall vaults him way over a baron, past viscount, to solid earl level.
Sunspear belongs in that list, and I’m not sure Storm’s End does.
Sunspear (Dorne) and Storm’s End (Stormlands) both belong, as does Casterly Rock (Westerlands). You know, the Lannisters?