Goths? Goths? Goths?

Factual Questions
1

The Goths were a Barbarian tribe that rose from being half-starved refugees in the Roman Empire, to an ethnic group that dominated the military & political dealings of Europe.

The Goths are a subculture of rather gloomy, but extremely stylish young people, who tend to dress in black–no, in Black, rather—and at least affect an intrest in Byronic poetry & vampirism.
**What is the connection between the two?? :confused: :confused: :confused: **

Type 1 Goths would use a sword to behead a Type 2 Goth on sight. How can the two be linked?

Also, I do believe that I need a deeper understanding of Modern (Type2) Goth culture. *Can any Doper Goths on the Board help me? * **I pledge to try & be polite, & learn respectfully. **

2

The Goth clique takes their name from the Gothic literary style. See the third definition at Merriam-Webster. I’m not clear where the Gothic style of literature got it’s name from, however. I’m sure some more literary Doper will be along shortly to enlighten us tho’…

3

Further research at dictionary.com yields more information. If you look at the “Word History” section, you’ll see that in the 1600’s the term “Gothic” first arose, with a number of more general meanings than simply “pertaining to the Goths”. Modern literary meaning of the term arose with The Castle of Otranto, a Gothic Story (1765), “filled with scenes of terror and gloom”.

4

From the previous definition. The architecture with spooky castles and cathedrals and things. Ideal settings for those kind of stories.

5

Ok, like you said, we start with the Goths, a barbarian tribe who came into Europe near the end of the Roman Empire. so time passes, and it’s the rennaisance, and people are trying to classify early medieval archetecture. The critics of early medeval archetecture said, “Look at it. They abandoned the old Roman style, which was simple and airy. If you look at the early medieval churches, they’re not that way at all. They’re ugly and heavy looking and dark, and really ornate, with gargoyles and no sense of proportion”. So, they called that style of archetecture “Gothic architecture”, because, just like the Goths destroyed Rome, those architects “destroyed” Roman architectural style.

Jump ahead to 1764, when Horace Walpole writes “The Castle of Otranto”, which is this dark romance novel involving ghosts, mysterious secrets, and the general sense that everything has just gone to hell. Walpole calls it “a Gothic story”, because he wants to evoke the mood of those old Gothic cathedrals…mysterious, oppressive, and kind of sinster. This starts a new literary genre…called Gothic fiction, which is popular until the middle of the 19th century. A lot of Gothic novels (although, not all of them, of course), involve the supernatural, especially ghosts, who usually have either died tragically or violently, and either need to be put to rest (by discovering the mansion’s mysterious secret) or take their revenge on the living. Most famously, you have the novels “Dracula” and “Frankenstein”.

So, the modern “goths” take their name from that literary genre, as was mentioned earlier.

6

You’re not the first to make this mistake. I recall a SF Chronicle columnist, I believe it was Jon Carroll, writing a column in the early 90’s which derided a youth group so callous that they would glorify the Visigoths and their barbaric ways. This was followed a week or so later by a very public “oh… nevermind”. Unfortunately, his older columns aren’t online so I can’t confirm that it was him. I just remember a lot of people being amused at the columnist’s righteous but utterly misguided indignation.

7

Great ! Thank you!
Are there any Goth Dopers?

Could you lend me an insight into Goth counterculture?

8

IANAG*, but…
Goths=Germanic tribe(s)…giving rise to
Gothic architecture, derisively named by critics in reference to the merovingian-age German tribes…giving rise to
Gothic literature, in reference to evoking Gothic architecture…giving rise to
Gothic Rock(or Goth), so-named when Siouxsie Sioux said to a reporter “It’s a very Gothic thing we’ve been doing. (ostensibly referring to the literature)”

Later some people confounded the Literary meaning of the word with the term for the genre of music, and made music that intentionally evoked a Gothic literary atmosphere (Fields of the Nephilim, for one.) Thus, the name of the genre has actually influenced the sound of the music, rather than just the other way around.

Can’t speak to the culture, but would state that with regards to the culture, even MORE so than the music, I would agree with the asterisked statement below (i.e. those that claim to be cultural Goths are usually posers.)

*now, some people consider one criteria for being a Goth that you claim not to be a Goth! In other words, most who claim to be are not. However, the opposite is not true: those who claim NOT to be are not all Goths…for instance “Bill Clinton could he wasn’t a Goth, and everyone would believe him” (thanks, Alt.Gothic FAQ)

9

Let’s see.

Pale. Odd clothes. Affected speech. Languid and depressed attitude.

I was Goth in the '50s.

10

And you couldn’t perk up and be with the beatniks?

11

Too young to grow the little beard, didn’t like berets, couldn’t snap fingers. Beatnik was right out.

12

I’m amazed there were goths in the fifties. My image of that time, through The Media and all, is probably more skewed than I think. Tell me more.

13

You’ve been whooshed. He just means he was “Pale. Odd clothes. Affected speech. Languid and depressed attitude” and thus similar to Goths.

14

Are you sure? All the Romanequse churches I’ve seen are rather dark, closed in and heavy looking, while it’s the Gothic Cathedrals that tend to be light and airy.

15

According to John Evelyn (17th century English writer and diarist:

[quote]
“The ancient Greek and Roman architecture answered all the perfections required in a faultless and accomplished building” — but the Goths and Vandals destroyed these and “introduced in their stead a certain fantastical and licentious manner of building: congestions of heavy, dark, melancholy, monkish piles, without any just proportion, use or beauty.” [/quote}

16

[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
According to John Evelyn (17th century English writer and diarist:

[quote]
“The ancient Greek and Roman architecture answered all the perfections required in a faultless and accomplished building” — but the Goths and Vandals destroyed these and “introduced in their stead a certain fantastical and licentious manner of building: congestions of heavy, dark, melancholy, monkish piles, without any just proportion, use or beauty.”
[/quote}[/QUOTE]

Okay, gotcha.

17

Yours is a pretty broad question because there is really no single “goth” counter-culture these days. Its further segmented into numerous different sub-sub-cultures that you could write an entire book on it all.

To start off with, you have your basic teenager who dyes their hair black, starts wearing eyeliner and possibly white foundation… black clothes etc. “Older” Goths generally refer to these people as “baby bats” or more commonly as “posers”. Its this teen group who usually believe Marilyn Manson and Evanescence are the pinnacle of Goth Music. An assertation that would cause most Goths to cluck their tongues then sigh with maudlin affectation.

Generalized Goth culture is strongly linked with the music (like most sub-cultures (Punk with Punk Rock, Emo/Junk Punk Rock with Skaters/Snowboarders, Psycadelic with Hippies etc). Most nightclubs that cater to Goths play music in one of several sub-genres such as: Electric Body Music (EBM), Synthpop, Darkwave, Electro, Industrial, Gabber. Popular musicians/groups with Goth nightclubs include artists such as: VNV Nation, Wolfsheim, Apoptygma Bezerk, Beborn Beton.

As for why people do it? Its highly individual. Part of it is assimilating into a culture of the music you love. Others for standard needs of belonging etc. Its really no different from joining of established social groups. Most Goths I know are not horrifically depressed individuals with rampant suicidal tendencies. Some are. Definately and I’m sure the prevalence is higher than in other social-sub groups. But for most its about having a darker view on life, pessimism and cynicism in the face of pointless optimism and also for the love of older times – The clothing, mannerisms, culture.

Goth “style” varies greatly these days too. You have people who prefer Victorian clothing, crushed velvet, cravats, frilly cuffs and the like. Some fellows enjoy growing large mustaches and then curling and waxing them. Women enjoy (or suffer in) their corsets. Some people just wear every-day clothes, just only in black. Many are also in BDSM (Bondage, Domination, Submission, Masochism) so leather and PVC is also quite common. You also have Goths who identify as “Vampirics” (the term seems to vary regionally) in any event these are individuals who drink human blood. They don’t actually believe they are vampires (well some do) but they enjoy the eroticism of blood-play and will drink each others blood.

For examples of the music, you can go to www.live365.com and do a search for “EBM” or “Darkwave” and you’ll get several web-stations that play the music I mentioned. Its free to listen.

18

I’m sure there are plenty. I’m one. As far as I know, the comments above regarding the history of the appelation are correct. I would add that the style/music subculture started as a more decadent splinter of punk in the early seventies - think Souxie and the Banshees - and there is still considerable overlap.

I’m not sure what you want to know. In general, I’d agree with what Jack Sarang said. It’s a highly subsplintered culture with flexible boundaries merging into the punk, deathrock, S&M, vampire, and occasionally raver subcultures. For those of us in the scene, there are dintinctive differences not only between goths of different countries, but even between the scenes in different cities. For non-goths, I’m sure the details of why Boston goths and NYC goths are different would bore you to tears.

I should hasten to add that, for the most part, the boundaries between splinter groups are open and happy - it’s not like they’re warring with each other. Different preferences, different styles, many mutual friends.

I would expand the musical influences some. While I agree that Darkwave is probably the core of goth music, goths tend to listen to a wide variety of types of music, with the defining themes of sharp cynicism or dark romanticism. Johnny Cash and Leonard Cohen are just as valid as Sisters of Mercy and Bauhaus (can you tell I’m an older goth?).

I personally got into the scene because it appealed to my sense of aesthetics and I love the music, and I stayed in it because it keeps me sane. I do suffer from major depressive attacks, and as a goth, I can externalise these in ways that are beautiful and creative, among people who appreciate dark feelings. And it’s hard to stay depressed when you’re feeling beautiful and creative. Anyone else’s story is probably different.

So, that’s a rambling and general answer - did you have something specific you wanted to know, or shall it just continue ranting? :slight_smile:

19

Please, rant on. It’s most informative.

20

Well okay, but… you asked for it.

Actually, I’ll have to rant mostly tomorrow, since I’m about to try and catch a quick nap before heading out for the night…*

*That’s a thought! Bosda, you’re not local, but if anyone reading this is curious about the goth scene and is near NYC, I work the door at a goth nightclub on most Fridays, including tonight and next week. It’s a pretty laid-back kind of place with a good cross-section of goths, and not too crowded. Come, tell me you’re a Doper, and I’ll give you a discount. No dress code required, but we appreciate black. Fridays, at Flamingo, 2nd Ave between 13th and 14th Street.

…so I’ll tell you a few things I like about the goth scene, more or less at random. This is strictly my experience, and anyone is welcome to disagree, comment, or question.

One of the things I enjoy about the goth scene (aside from mental health help) is a general appreciation of elegance. While dress styles range from Victoriana to cyber-modern, they are almost always worn by people with their heads up and shoulders back. If you look at goths in a crowd, they are frequently the ones standing proud.

This also translates to a greater acceptance of different body types (more so in the NYC scene, I think). The dying heroin-addict look is only one of an infinity of possibilities. Personal style counts for more than pretty faces, and the whole look is so obviously artificial that using artificial beauty aids (corsets, heavy makeup) is perfectly acceptable. I, personally, weigh nearly 300 pounds, but I get compliments and proposals every night because I have flair and I work every ounce of it. Did I mention that I like feeling sexy?

Sadly, elegance can quickly degenerate into pointless arrongance. I’m no saint on this front, either. One of the irritating things about the goth scene is that every year it gets invaded by a bunch of college kids who just discovered they look cute in tight black vinyl. These people don’t care about the music, don’t share the aethetics, won’t be here next year. But in the meantime they want everyone to admire them in their tight vinyl panties and get pissy when all the respect and attention go to older, established people. So I, and other older goths, tend to ignore people until they’ve been around for a while. It’s a somewhat necessary weeding process, but not a very attractive trait.

I do like the diversity of goths. Okay, yes, the middle class is probably overrepresented. But there is a wide cross-section of races and economic statuses. My personal circle of goth friends includes bartenders, lighting managers, DJs (of course), lawyers, various and sundry computer professionals, jobless/borderline homeless, chefs, retail “associates”, and I’m a post-doctoral researcher in genetics at a major university, if you want to know. I would venture to say that the racial makeup of the goth scene approximates that of the New York area, with perhaps Asians being underrepresented and Latinos gravitating toward the Vampire end of the spectrum.

So what’s not to like? Beautiful people, beautiful music. Most especially, a general attitude that my mother likes to call “upbeat cynicism”, combined with a deep love of heavy drinking. Sort of “well, the world’s going to hell and death is inevitable, but I’m having fun and, umm… merlot or vodka?”

So I’m off to nap and make myself pretty…

mischievous