Governor Scott Walker just sealed his own fate

Great Debates
101

[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
complaining is one thing, refusing to show up for work (teachers) and fleeing the State (State senators) is something I have not seen in a conservative play book.
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No, the conservative playbook is threatening lockouts, or massive layoffs if certain policies are proposed. And then actually conducting massive layoffs and closing down factories to move to jurisdictions where they won’t be bothered with all those pesky labor, environmental or tax regulations.

A main reason why the public sector have the strongest unions left is that they are the only industry that can’t be threatened with off-shoring.

[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
By State, I mean the future of Wisconsin and its taxpayers, not an ambiguous entity or idea. Ironically, individual liberties are not something a union has an interest in.
[/QUOTE]
Then simply refer to Wisconsin and instead of ‘an ambiguous entity or idea’. It was a rather odd use of capitalization, if you were merely referring to the state of Wisconsin.

As far as collective bargaining units go, unions have far more respect for individual liberties than corporations do. Corps are the master of one-size-fits-all policies and threatening civil liberties. Or perhaps you could point to all the lawsuits filed against unions by their members for infringing their rights. If you do, be sure to compare them against the number of lawsuits against corporations by their employees for the same cause.

[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
A free market, as you refer to the State vs Union workers, will never exist if the the ebb and flow of natural politics is not allowed play itself out. The flow right now is to the right and fighting it will only worsen our State’s financial problems and push them down the road for someone else to deal with.
[/QUOTE]
All labor markets in this country are free. The last I heard compulsory employment was outlawed a while ago. I remember that there was some ruckus about it, but the details are foggy at the moment.

No one is forced to join a union, just as no one is forced to work for any particular employer*. But Congress and the courts have recognized that corporations are a form of collective bargaining (hell, that is the primary reason they exist), and that labor deserves the same privilege. And the freedom of the labor market is extremely curtailed when side has that right and the other does not. Nor does it matter what sector they work in. The ‘ebb and flow’ is quickly dammed up when one side has all the bargaining power.

[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
You have no idea. If you think these waters are rough, wait until the REAL meat of his budget cuts arrive.
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I do not know his beliefs - other than his willingness to discuss local issues with out-of-state billionaires while refusing to do so with fellow local elected officials. Maybe that is why the senators left - they thought the governor might actually take their calls then. But, yes, I am sure we have only seen the beginning of Walker’s idiocy when it comes to formulating budgets.

[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
I don’t agree. Unions tend to equalize the talents of everyone and no one can stand above the rest. Often, the best and the worst workers get the same benefits, pay and representation. I’d rather earn those things, not have them handed to me just cause I pay dues.
[/QUOTE]
If only there was some way that those workers with better talents or experience could find an employer that was willing to offer them greater rewards. It is a shame that once someone joins a union, they forced to remain in it for life.

[QUOTE=Assi]

They have a significant amount of members forced to join, and made to pay into political campaigns they don’t support.
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You do know that mandatory contributions to political funds have been declared unconstitutional, and that all such union funds have to rely upon voluntary contributions. Of course, corporations never appropriate funds from their shareholders or customers for political purposes.

AP

*Complaining about being ‘forced’ to join a union at a particular place of employment is as silly as complaining about being ‘forced’ to wear a uniform while working - they are part of the terms of employment - if such policies overwhelm your political or fashion sensibilities, then apply elsewhere.

102

Unions have apprenticeship programs. They teach skilled trades. You do not get hired in at top rates. You are taught a skill such as machining or some other skill from step one. You go to classes and work and learn a trade. In Dearborn the Union built a skilled trades school that teaches people skills to run and operate the increasingly complex machinery and robots. They teach electricians, pipe fitters,lathe operators and millrights.
Strange how after going through a process like that, people sometimes think they owe the union something.It is true that after you reach the top skill level your pay hits a ceiling. There are some pay concessions to experience and seniority.
A beginning worker does not get the same vacation a long time employee gets. It takes years to reach the maximum level.
The idea that everybody gets the same pay and benefits with a union is wrong. They do set a bottom level though. The employee starts with enough pay to survive, A survival wage is not asking too much.

103

I’ve always considered Time Magazine to be at least slightly left of center, so I was pretty amazed to read this weeks editorial.

104

Robotics and automation have increase productivity and given even more profits for the ownership and investment class. They have not made more money for workers. Their wages have dropped during that time. Workers do not share in the gains of productivity. Any job that can be offshored to non skilled people who will work for peanuts has been done. Wages are dropping but leaving public sector jobs at their rates would cause an imbalance. That is one reason why they are going after unions. That and the fact if they crush unions, the Democrat funding would be killed. Then the Court decision allowing unlimited spending by corporations would have the impact the Supremes were after.
ONe political jerk described public workers as the “elite class today”. Want to join the elite, become a garbage man, a sewer worker or a teacher. Their pay is so imbalanced, particularly when compared to the bankers who are just getting by.

105

Or elect people who will change it.

“Elections have consequences” - President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho

106

That’s a really disingenuous point for anyone who knows about Baumol’s Cost Disease. From the Wikipedia page:

Not that Ms. Ripley is necessarily aware of Baumol’s work; I have no idea. But if not, someone should make her aware of it.

107

Oh, and since I just saw that you, Ring, used the same cite in another thread, I can only hope that now that you’re aware of Baumol, you’ll either stop blithely citing Ms. Ripley or, at the very least, work on understanding the subject better.

108

I don’t see Ring citing Ripley, there, except possibly as evidence that Time isn’t as left as he thought. He didn’t say that he agreed with the article.

109

Huh. Although I read it as a tacit endorsement of Ripley’s position, you’re absolutely correct. Unless there’s further clarification, I apologize, Ring, and thank you, Chronos, for catching that.

110

Back to the thread. Walker has a huge payoff in his future. He is doing the privileged classes dirty work. If he succeeds there will be a huge well paid consultants job. He has also been mentioned as a future Repub presidential candidate, but the public reaction to his dirty work is diminishing that possibility.

111

I belong to one, everyone at my level makes the same money for doing the same job. It’s the electrical construction union. Not the same as the public sector, but I get the jist of unions and I don’t agree with 75 percent of what they do. I won’t speak for myself but I see members of my union, fellow workers, do high quality work and get paid the same as the guy who spends all day gabbing with the carpenters.
Sure, the apprentices start out at a lower scale, but once we top out we all make the same hourly wage. Our employers can pay us whatever they want (higher than scale) but that rarely happens, 99 percent of the workers in our local are at the same pay rate.
I also live in Wisconsin, if that wasn’t obvious.
And yes, I am forced to pay dues. I could quit the union and stop paying dues, but then I would loose everything I’ve worked for to this point.

Back to the major point in this thread. State workers should absolutely not have collective bargaining privileges. What happened in Wisconsin is that the unions were in bed with the politicians they supported with union dues. It’s the same as your best friend being your boss. It’s too hard to be fair to the tax payers and the state workers at the same time. The principle concern when it comes to the elected politician is to do what’s best for the state, and that’s awfully hard to do when collective bargaining is in place. These senators that fled the state to avoid a vote disgust me. It is not their place to subvert the democratic process just because they know they’ll loose the vote. If the Republicans EVER did this they’d be hung.
And why aren’t any of you liberals chastising your fellow opponents of Walker who are comparing him to Hitler and the like. I saw a poster in the capital that read “Walker = Hitler”. A democratic assembly person told one of the republican assembly persons “you are fucking dead”, for voting for the bill. Nice. Oh, and now there’s people from the socialist/communist parties at the rally too. Nice bedfellows. The director of the AFL-CIO was asked if he condoned the verbal treatment of Scott Walker and he dodged the question.
The shitstorm that we’re in right now is exactly why collective bargaining should be a thing of the past for state workers. I don’t believe any federal workers get the privilege to cb. Oh, and it’s not a right, it’s a privilege.

112

After the bill passes, and it will, the dust will settle and the people of Wisconsin will realize that Walker was right. The world will not come to a screeching halt, the state worker will still be making about what they’re making now (still ahead of the private sector) and we will have a balanced budget and a healthy economy with a good outlook for jobs. Win, win.

113

Busting the unions has nothing to do with the budget, and public unions have nothing to do with the deficit. The problem isn’t caused by justly compensating people for their labor, it’s caused by the amount of revenue lost by politicians paying out barrelfuls of public money to their rich, corporate sugar daddies.

114

You don’t possibly believe that. You’re too smart and I know you too well. You’re pretending to be obtuse.

115

You know damn well every word is true. Just out of curiosity, why do you hate people who work for a living?

116

I love people who work for a living.

117

Teachers don’t work? Snow plow drivers don’t work? Sanitation workers don’t work? The only public employees who don’t work are the ones who are elected.

118

The state employees do not make more than private workers. Comparable public employees generally have higher educations.So simple comparisons fail. There is an argument about whether their retirements are higher because you have to compare their contracted retirement to 401 Ks which are difficult to determine how much they will end up .
Public employees do generally have a steadier job they can depend on. They are not subject to dismissal at the whim of an employer. What is that worth?
Does anybody think the deficits will be fixed by removing the bargaining ability of the unions? The unions have agreed to sit down with the gov, and make concessions. That would refer to money . But Walker insists on killing the ability to collectively bargain as a start. Do you suspect that bargaining with every single employee on the state payroll will be a costly procedure ? He would probably have to start a new agency to deal with it.

119

Y’know who else did things like compare Walker to Hitler? I’ll give you one guess…

Seriously, that’s unacceptable. In the words of doper Hamlet (I think, from a few years back when Bush/Hitler comparisons were so in vogue), I condemn it, whoever is doing it. Is that better?

120

Walker presented his budget. He is cutting a billion out of education and scrapping the help to the poor. He says he is giving the educational districts “the tools” they need to balance their budgets. Those tools are voiding contracts and killing collective bargaining so they can slash the wages of all their workers. It is clearly and simply a war against unions and the working class. The money is flowing to the top at a rate beyond the Gilded Age. But they want more. They resent teachers and public workers making a decent wage.
I see lots of foreclosures and bankruptcies in the future of Wisconsin’s working class. Perhaps a tax cut to the wealthy will fix Wisconsin. It has worked so well.