Grammar question... Is proper english doomed?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I am currently watching a documentary on Pivot, called “Plastic Paradise: The Great Pacific Garbage Patch”, directed by (and I assume starring) Angela Sun.

She is walking on a beach on Midway Atoll with a 12-year old kid, when she says to him…

“Have you ever got bit?”

Seriously.

Now, I will admit that I do not have an English degree. However, even I know (at least I thought I knew) this is mangled english… And Angela Sun was born and raised in California, so even though she clearly seems to have asian ancestry, she grew up speaking and learning the english language.

As to the sentence above, wouldn’t a proper way to say what she said be “Have you ever been bitten?” Or is what she said correct, and I am just out of my mind?

I can’t believe that someone who has a degree in broadcast journalism (or something along these lines) would say something like this in a documentary. I am even more amazed that no one picked up this butchered sentence and edited it before the documentary was broadcast.

Unless of course the sentence, while not exactly elegant, is technically correct.

So is it?

And if it isn’t, what is happening to the english language? Is this a product of bad education, social media devices like Twitter, texting, and/or the acceptance by more and more people of leetspeak, netspeak, phonics, etc. that have continued to degrade the language? Spelling errors are so common now very few people seem to be bothered by them… especially (istm, anyway), by younger folks. Maybe this is just a product of the times. I can understand how a kid growing up in the last 15-20 years would be used to reading and writing short, clipped messages to communicate over the internet.

Sentence structure and grammar are constantly butchered, but I’d like to think that there are still some places where standards should be adhered to. However, as these kids grow up and move into adult careers, they seem to be taking their bad habits with them. Business emails I receive now are noticeably worse on all levels than they were a decade ago. No one seems to mind as much as me, though, which is frustrating. People should try to communicate properly when they are in a professional setting; imo this shouldn’t even be up for debate. And the truth is, it really isn’t. I am the only one who has voiced a concern to my collegues. Clearly, I am old. I feel older every day.

And a follow-up. Is English the only language that is suffering a “dumbing-down” because of the forces driving english into the ground, or is this just an english phenomenon? I can’t imagine french (or chinese, etc. ) being butchered like this by a native speaker, but maybe this is the world we now live in.

SFP (scanning the OP for spelling and grammar errors. I hope and pray there aren’t any.)

ETA: I turned off the documentary.

2

Define “proper English.”

3

Are you a Prescriptivist or a Descriptivist?

4

I only made it as far as “have you ever got bit” and it reminds me of when people say ‘on accident’. Whenever my (9 year old) says that, I remind her that it’s ‘by accident’ and ‘on purpose’. Also, I live in a part of town where proper grammar isn’t that big of deal and something I hear a lot of is ‘seen’ is and “I seen it over there”. Even before I moved here, but when I spent a lot of time here that usage drove me nuts. That’s another one I work very hard to make sure my daughter doesn’t say.

Having said that, I as much as I’d agree that it might be changing, I wouldn’t say it’s doomed. It’s an evolving language. Can you honestly say that you’ve never used a word with it’s ‘new’ meaning. You’ve never (even sarcastically) said literally when you meant figuratively. Every time you’ve said decimated, you mean that one said took out 1/10th of the other said as opposed to pretty much destroyed etc.

If the English Language is doomed, it’s not because of ‘kids these days’, it started hundreds of years ago. Hell, look at how people talked (or at least how we imagine they talked) even in the 17 or 1800’s. How do you think they’d feel if they saw written English even a hundred years later.

Two closing points. A)Have you got bit, without having heard the context, does sound pretty stupid and wrong and, like you, I’m surprised it made it past everyone that should have caught it. But sometimes mistakes happen, people that should have picked it up are just to close to catch it (tunnel vision etc) and by the time it is noticed the project is too far along to fix it.
II)I thought I read a study somewhere that said even thought kids these days are tweeting and texting like morons it’s really not affecting (effecting? I don’t really care) their ability to use proper grammar. That is, they learn to read and write just find, they just use retarded grammar in social media…which is where grown-ups notice it. Also, grown-ups talk like that in social media too. My mom, a grammar nazi, uses all kinds of abbreviations and shortened sentences when she sends me texts, though I don’t know why, it doesn’t take much longer to just type it all out. I promise, she can still build a sentence and probably pass a high school grammar test.

5

This is a fine question. I don’t know. I would say that proper english is the language I was taught in school, which adheres to certain rules. I certainly can’t define all of the rules for you. But proper tenses for verbs would be a start. Also, the use of the proper pronoun at the correct time.

I guess someone who actually majored in english composition or knows enough about the rules of english could help answer this better than I (or is it me? No, definitely I) can.

I don’t know what this means, but I hope it is polite!

6

Lawd Awmighty yer ain’t ‘arf talkin’ Jacksons me ole china.

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the English you were taught in school isn’t the same English that kids were taught in school when this country was formed, and is not the same English taught today in England and other Commonwealth nations. So which is the “proper” English?

PROTIP: you’re talking like an old white man who thinks the way things were when he was a kid is the absolutely only correct way for things to be.

shall I also only take tea at the proper time of day, and properly adjust the rod up my ass at regular intervals?

8

I am sure I have spoken incorrectly, and I am sure I will continue to make mistakes… As you point out, not everything I have said could or should be taken literally. And you are right. English is and has evolved, and will continue to do so.

I agree with this. I don’t mean to sound like I am blaming it on the “kids these days.” That isn’t fair. I think, though, that things are moving at a much faster rate now than they ever have before. The written and spoken word do not seem to get the care and attention they used to.

I am not talking about the usage of certain words. I am talking about sentence structure. If Jefferson were to come back today, I doubt he would be impressed with the quality of the vocabulary used, or the way we generally speak.

However, at the core, the structure of the language should remain, with speakers and writers following the same set of rules. What words they use will obviously evolve over time. But things like tense, singular or plural, past or present, should keep things headed in the same direction, so to speak.

I again agree. And to be honest, I don’t get too angry over typos in notes on the dope, or message boards, or twitter, etc. But I do get frustrated with written or spoken communications that are supposed to be written by a professional, and yet have spelling or grammarical errors. Not only did the author miss it, but presumably so did any editors that were responsible for the content.

In the workplace, I also expect some level of quality. When someone writes a poorly structured email or memo, it reflects poorly on that person. Maybe that’s wrong, but that’s how I’m wired. But I see more and more of it… Perhaps, it’s just what folks have become accustomed to. If the point they are trying to convey has been understood, maybe that is the level of quality they expect or require.

In my example above, I knew what she meant; it just broke my ear. Perhaps that is my problem, not hers.

9

You are missing my point.

This is GQ. I am not interested in getting into a debate. I am asking if the sentence I quoted was grammatically correct?

I am also not interested in discussing what you have inserted where in your body, or how or when you should adjust it.

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Btw, how do you know? Do you have access to an english primer from 17th century New England?

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No, it is not grammatically correct. Yes, it is acceptable slang.
(You didn’t miss much in the doc BTW.)

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and since this is GQ, you need to define “Proper English” before we can evaluate the correctness of what you ask. Because the first time I asked you what “Proper English” was, you said “I don’t know.”

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I’d be curious if it is moving faster or if that’s just how we perceive it. Keep in mind, we’re comparing not just our spoken word to written word of the past, but our spoken word to the published word of the past. Jefferson might not like the way we speak, but if he looks at the way modern statutes are written or reads a State Of The Union Address, it might seem perfectly in line with the way they were nearly 200 years ago, with a few updates to the grammar but not more than he might expect. It’s not like we write “If u steal sum $, u go 2 jail 4 10 yrs!!!”. We look at what was published 200 years ago but I’m willing to bet they spoke in a much more casual manner, especially those that weren’t politicians.
Look at My Fair Lady or any other movie that takes place way back when, they didn’t all talk like Cary Grant and Jimmy Stewart.
Not that you’re doing this, at all, but it reminds me of what Big Pussy said to Pauly in the Sopranos. “Again with the rape of the culture”

14

yeah it’s sad that no one cares about proper grammar nowadays

if it’s not maths or science people think it is useless

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The first principle of historical linguistics: The only constant in any language over time is the tendency of its speakers to complain about how no one speaks it properly anymore.

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Yes, yes it is.

In something of an inversion, I had more of a stick up my ass about these things when I was younger. During my schooling I was usually somewhere at the top of the class in English. Knowing what was and what was not “proper English” was a point of pride to me. It was a way I could feel good about myself.

But then through reading about the history of English spelling and grammar (on these boards and elsewhere) I just came to realise that it all rests on nothing. Every aspect of English (grammar, spelling, definitions, everything…) changes over time and - from a historical perspective - quite quickly.

It’s useful to know “proper English” because at any given time there is a common view as to what comprises “proper English” and it’s beneficial to be able to please others by conforming to that view. But if you are at all intellectual about it you should understand that “proper English” is to “language” as “now” is to “time”. It’s only a term for a fleeting moment in something rushing by.

As to whether the pace of change of language is increasing, it’s hard to say. Undoubtedly there are some things that are changing faster now than at any time in recorded history. But without access to objective data it’s hard to say whether language is one of those things, because subjectively everyone feels like the pace of change gets higher as we get older.

17

Moved to IMHO.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

18

Moved to IMHO.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

19

Who has defined these grammatical rules? Where are they held? Who reviews them, or approves any changes? Is it the Queen (well, it’s Her English:p).

There are no rules - there are accepted conventions that get taught in schools the help avoid mis-understandings. But they are not rules. No one is going to get taken to court for violating one of them.

If people choose not to listen to someone based on their use of grammar - well, that is their choice. But really - gee whiz - no one is dying due to mis-use of grammar in casual conversation or entertainment documentaries. Make an effort. Lower yourself to their level. You may learn something of interest (other than grammar).

20

I recommend that everyone who’s interested in this topic read this essay:

The English language changes over time. I don’t doubt it. We still try to teach kids correct grammar and syntax in school. We have a reason for doing so. Most of us must be aware that, at some level, good use of language is necessary for good thinking. It’s easier to tell whether a piece of writing contains sound logic if its meaning is crystal clear.

No one expects perfect English all the time. My English is far from perfect. That’s no reason to avoid making an attempt at speaking and writing well, though.