I totally agree with this.
If I participate in sex without my consent and I choose not to call it rape because it sits better with my psyche then I shouldn’t be forced into accepting a term that brings fear and anguish to me.
Taking the male side:
If both parties are drunk, who rapes whom?
Why should a woman be able to plead impairment by alcohol? (This is proposed legislation in the U.K.) If you choose to drive while alcohol-impaired, you’ll get no sympathy if caught.
And let’s not forget that false claims of rape are not exactly uncommon.
What do you mean by “forced to accept a term?” What does that mean? That’s weird. It’s like getting stabbed and then saying you don’t like the word “stabbed,” so you’d rather say you have a non-consensual puncture wound. I don’t get it. Whatever. If you want to call it something else, call it something else. Who cares? Legally and factually it’s still rape, though, and you don’t have a right to tell other rape victims they haven’t been raped, nor do you have to right to impede their entitlement to criminal justice should theys eek it.
Um…because lots of women get raped while they’re incapacitaed by alcohol. Are you saying you want to legalize the rape of women who are passed out drunk?
Actually, yes they are.
Sorry, who’s the driver there? And why must a woman ‘plead’ anything if she’s the one getting raped? (If she’s drunk and gets up on a passed out guy who manages to maintain an erection while blacked out, yes, she’s raping him.)
I was under the impression that there were no more false rape claims than false accusations of any other violent crime. Also, if anything, reading reactions to the article, it seems as if there are far more women willing to ‘let it go’ than report their rape (and hopefully, the guy’s next few encounters won’t be with virgins, the underage, or girls with cops/mobsters in the family.)
What I’m saying is approximately this.
“Rape” to me has these (strong) implications: “no rape” = okay; “rape” = not okay. A rapist is a rapist. It obscures any possible gray area between the worst rape and no rape.
To me, “sexual assault” has room for more gray areas. This is likely a product of my culture, where “rape” has no legal meaning. I note that in my own personal definition, rape does not require penetration, which seems to diverge from other definitions.
The way I define rape or sexual assault is dependent on the circumstances.
If I am wondering about legal consequences, I will look at the appropriate legislation for my jurisdiction. For other circumstances (involving people I can relate to in any way) I will get my definition from the subject of the incident (the victim, the assaulted, whatever the term is). If she calls it rape, then that is what it is: she has her definition and, since it is her that we’re talking about, then that is the correct one to use.
For other cases involving people on the other end of the planet (literally or figuratively), such as war crime rapes, I will have to figure out some other definition. That is a can of worms I don’t wish to open here, tho, just to say that definitions rely on context, and that it bothers me a lot that the “gray rape” in the OP is put in the same category as some of the horrors that are visited on girls and women in war zones every day. What’s the use of a word that can describe both situations?
Here is why I think this way:
We waste a lot of time arguing over whether this case or that counts as a rape. The reason for this is often because of legal actions to do with the case. In such situations, legislation is the only appropriate tool. (As outlined above, I have major problems not only with legal definitions but also a lot of the legislation around gendered violence, so I am not asserting these as my definitions - just that they are the appropriate ones to use in those contexts.)
Even if we could (any of us) ultimately agree on a definition, it wouldn’t make a whit of difference to anyone who wasn’t at the table, and we wouldn’t have a single shred more insight into anything important (aside from legal situations, again).
“Okay. That was a rape, you’re right. Now what?”
If I want to talk about rape in any given context - my rape; my friend’s rape; the rapes that my sketchy neighbour committed; the rape that my sketchy neighbour was falsely accused of having committed; rape in same-sex relationships; prison rape; campus date rape; “gray” rape; marital rape; child rape; rapes by strangers on subway trains; sexual prisoners; coerced/nonconsensual relationships; rape as a social sanction in certain communities; rape as a war crime - then I will define it according to the purpose of the discussion, and I expect the definitions would differ for each situation, because the situations are so different.
You asked me to elaborate on my definition of rape. I responded that I have no definition of rape, as the term has no legal definition here, and the way I define it in my mind is different from the way you define it (in your mind or your laws).
My definition, tho, is not the issue. (For the record, I will repeat that my personal approach is to go with the definition used by the subject of the assault, except in legal cases, where I have to go with the appropriate legislation, and in cases where that information is not reasonably obtainable.) The point is that definitions vary according to situation and subjectivity.
But that’s precisely the case! Lots of people (and not just in the US) use “rape” (or “sexual assault”) about any number of vague possibly ambiguous nonconsensual situations. I thought that’s what we were discussing?
Here’s the problem: one person’s “impairment” is another person’s “passed out.” Isn’t it quite possible to be drunk (i.e. impaired) but not passed out? Sure, if it weren’t, bars would have cots and not stools. Consent is not always clear and unambiguous, despite your desire to make it so, when the only two witnesses to the event were impaired (not passed out) by alcohol. It simply isn’t.
Anecdotes aren’t worth much, but I was once told by a girl who I had been dating for quite some time that the date rape everyone thought she had experienced, the date rape she told me about soon after we started living together, the date rape that did not result in any criminal charges but did result in the ostracization of a kid from his peer group, this date rape never actually happened – this was six years after the fact when she told me, she said she’d never told anyone else. I still remeber our conversation. “Why?” was all I could say. “I was embarrased at having woken up naked in his dorm room.” was her response. “You know he didn’t?” “I know he didn’t, I wanted it to, at the time.” Suffice it to say, our relationship lasted about another half hour.
There is a huge gray area. There are times when rape is rape, and there are times when it’s technically rape, probably, but you probably couldn’t get the guy convicted by a jury of his peers. (A jury of Andrea Dworkin, yes; a jury of reasonable people, no.)
For instance, I was once sort of abducted by a guy. Yes, I mean sort of. See what you think. I was on crutches, and had been for a couple of weeks, for a broken bone in my foot. The weather had been too bad to get around even if you were able-bodied, and then it got much better. I was going stir-crazy, so my roommate asked if I was up to walking to the Dairy Queen a couple of blocks from campus, and I said I was. I was wrong; by the time we got there I was exhausted, the bad weather had left lots of puddles and black ice that had to be negotiated, and it had been a bad idea. So when two guys asked us if we wanted a ride back to the dorms we said hell yes.
I didn’t know either guy. My roommate knew one of them.
On the way back to the dorm, which was on a one-way street that went around the campus in a oval (called “The Oval”), the first guy dropped off was the one my roommate knew. Then my roommate said she could be dropped off at the library if that was okay. That left the guy I didn’t know in the front, and me in the back seat (with my crutches). The next stop should have been my dorm, but the guy just breezed right on by it, even though I was protesting from the back seat. He drove straight to a known make-out area, climbed over the seat and began, quite literally, pressing himself on me–and I kept protesting, asking him who the hell he thought he was, etc. This went on for what seemed like a really long time, during which I had the thought that I was tired, and why not just give him what he wanted–interspersed with anger that he thought he could just do what he wanted, and what had I ever done to make him think that? I had just broken up with my boyfriend–this hasn’t got much to do with anything. There was some dialogue along the lines of “if you want to go back to your dorm you can walk”–sure, right, and I could have walked from the Dairy Queen, which was a lot shorter walk. Eventually the guy gave up and climbed back into the front seat (I stayed in the back) and drove me back to my dorm.
So, what if I’d gone with the “oh, what the hell” scenario? Would that have been rape? If I’d just given up? Frankly, I wouldn’t say so. I would have been just as pissed off either way.
I did get revenge. (My ex-boyfriend even offered to get some other guys from his fraternity and beat the guy up. I thought that was very nice of him–and I’m usually such a pacifist–but I declined.) I would never even think about getting revenge if it was truly consensual, even if it was lousy sex.
If you all of a sudden found yourself attracted to him, it still wouldn’t change the fact that he had already assaulted you. Again, this is the problem, we’re all envisioning different scenarios. I’m reffering to two college kids who get drunk, go home, get busy, and the next day the girl (due to embarassment, coercion of friends or fear of the unknown night before) says she was raped or thatn she doesn’t remeber what happened, even though she knows never said no, never pushed away and was awake the whole time and all about it.
Is the main character in *Knocked Up * a rapist?
But what if I’d said to myself, “Okay, what the hell. I’m tired, and I’m weak from going around on crutches all day, and it’s just sex anyway.” And quit struggling, quit fighting him off. I mean, that’s consent, right? Just let him have his way so I can get back to the dorm and go to sleep?
he’d already assaulted you, unless you changed your mind about that too, in which case, guess you know who you’re taking to formal.
Sorry, I’ve been away from the computer for awhile.
(Yes, Autolycus, it happened to me. Thank you for your sympathy.)
cowgirl, you make some interesting observations, and I thank you for the time and thought you’ve put into your posts. But none of what you say is compelling enough for me to change my mind. None of your “not-rape” examples would be considered rape here in the States either, as **olivesmarch4th **has already said. And that means neither conversationally or legally.
I have no problem with there being degrees of sexual assault, aggravated whatever in the nth degree with mitigating whatevers. Yes, for the law, I think things should be more precise, and a crazy person wielding a knife who spends quality time torturing his victim before raping her should certainly face harsher punishment than a stupid buzzed frat boy who rapes the girl he’s been dating for two years while they’re on spring break. But both are rapists. Conversationally, colloquially and in the therapist’s chair, both women are victims (or survivors) of rape.
Rape = non-consensual sex (sex, Mr. Clinton, is oral, anal or vaginal penetration). Sexual assault = whatever the legislatures of the applicable jurisdiction have decided it does.
Of course it has meaning! Unless you’re telling us that your response to “I’ve been raped” would be “I have no idea what you’re talking about”, then it’s clear that “rape” has meaning outside of a context of full and graphic disclosure. It’s kind of ridiculous to pretend otherwise. If I tell you I was raped, you may not know how to react to that information and you may not know how that rape affected me, and you may not know whether or not it involved violence, drugs, or some other means of coercion…but you do know that non-consensual sex was had. That’s all that is and should be communicated by the word “rape”.
Similarily, if some stranger took fifty bucks from you without your permission and the next day your best friend did the same thing, both acts would be stealing according to the almost universally accepted meaning. Both acts would be stealing regardless of how you felt in response.
As are all words. I don’t see what makes rape (and racism) so special that we have to treat them differently than all the other words out there.
I set the bar considerably higher, speaking for myself (male, 47 years old, for whatever that’s worth. I’ve gotta hear “yes” or some equivalent before I consider that consent has been given. But. . .
Actually, no they’re not. It happens quite frequently, sadly. Any ADA (assistant district attorney, here in New York, might go by different titles elsewhere) can tell you that truly staggering numbers of false accusations are made. They never go anywhere, because the ADAs weed the obvious ones out of the process, so they’re not reflected in crime statistics, but they happen all the time. And any matrimonial lawyer can tell you all about false accusations.
And there’s the scary thing. Every man lives in fear of what probably isn’t “gray rape,” but could more accurately be termed “retroactive rape.” The woman makin the rape claim (accusation, charge, whatever) is thinking “I woke up with this guy. I was drunk the night before. I wouldn’t have made the decision to sleep with this man if I was sober. He paid for the drinks. Therefore, since he got me drunk, he did not have my consent, no matter that I was hitting on him and took him back to my place and initiated sex with him. Thus, he raped me. QED.”
It happens. Sucks, but it’s true.
From Wikipedia:
That figure, 41%, is not inconsistent with other studies conducted similarly elsewhere.
Diogenes, do you contend that 41% is “uncommon?” Or do you have some critique of the study?
Further on in the article you cited, it also says that the author of the study warned against extrapolating this result from one small town to larger populations:
I’d contend that a lot has changed in sexual attitudes and education in the last 30 years, as well as there being a huge difference between small town and urban environments.
Plus, although I hate to say it, it would not at all surprise me if false rape accusations are copycatted in a small community. Much like the witch-hunts of Salem, hysterical young women can often drive each other into a frenzy of self proclaimed misery and victimhood, even if they have to lie to themselves to do it. See: emo, cutting, and suicide bumps.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, just that I’d need to see a lot more of these other studies you say corroborate this one.
A few years ago I had been involved with a woman from work off and on for about 2 years. Our last stint lasted about 8 months and we were regularly spending nights together, though we didn’t really see each other as boyfriend/girlfriend but rather as friends with benefits. One morning I was jolted awake by this friend’s teeth scraping on my penis and realized she was giving me morning head. I said something to the effect of “nah stop it, I need to pee” but she just kept going at it. I finally had to forcefully remove her and she freaked out wondering what the hell my problem was and why I was being such an asshole to her when she was “just trying to give me a gift before work.” I didn’t see it as a “gift” but as unwanted sexual contact. I calmed down and when I got to thinking about it I probably wouldn’t have said no if I hadn’t been so groggy, so I just let it go.
Now I know most men would call that ‘lucky’ but my question is: would that be considered rape or sexual assault or what? I didn’t consider it too big a deal at the time because who would feel I was victimized by morning head, but I’ve always wondered if I would have landed in handcuffs had the roles been reversed and she had blown up at me and picked up the phone.
What if you’re too drunk to say yes or no? Not very often, but a couple of times in my life, I’ve been too intoxicated to think through a decision like whether or not to have sex with someone. I’m sure most people who drink with any frequency have been. Now, what if you’re on a date with somone, or are hanging out with a “friend,” when you’re too drunk to think clearly, and you start fooling around… and then sex happens. If you were sober, you wouldn’t have had sex with that person, and you didn’t really want to. But you didn’t say no because your IQ was lowered by 100 points. Hell, maybe you didn’t say “yes” either. It just… happened. I’m sure that’s a scenario that has played itself out for more than a couple of people.
Now imagine that the person who had sex with you was sober. Does that change anything?
Crap like this happens at college all the time. I had several girlfriends get into situations where they were drunk and “hooked up” with someone they didn’t want to have sex with, really, and felt pretty sketchy later. None of them alleged rape, but it is a gray area IMO, esp. if the guy in question is sober and the girl is too drunk to walk right (ETA: I’d feel the same if the girl was sober and the guy was too drunk to walk right).
Dan Savage mentioned something like that. He said that there are gray areas, such as in a relationship. Waking some random stranger up with oral sex might be considered assault, but waking your long time lover up with oral sex could be fine–if it was an established routine. I think the rules get a little bit more relaxed when you’re with someone you’ve been with. Obviously, rape can still occur, but when you’ve been with someone for long enough, reaching over and rubbing their breasts or ass or penis without explicitly asking isn’t assault in the same way as it is with someone you don’t know as well.