Great Debates debates the Debate (Part 1)

Tonight is the first of the three debates between Coke and Pepsi…er, I mean, Bush and Gore. This thread will be your one-stop source for the Great Debates spin.

Now for the pre-game show:

I’m predicting hard-hitting questions, definitive answers, and a thorough discussion of issues that genuinely affect the American people.

OK, now that you’ve stopped laughing, here’s what I predict for tonight–not much. This one will probably be mostly serve-and-volley, with creampuff questions, competent responses, and nothing memorable. Bush will probably perform better than most of the punditry expects him to, but I still think Gore has him in the straight-up game.

The media will declare Gore the “winner”, and thanks to the wonderful positive feedback cycle that is modern politics-by-poll, he will gain a few percentage points on Bush.

As Slate Magazine pointed out, the best thing Bush can hope for in any of these debates is the chance to slip in a memorable sound bite, in the tradition of “There you go again”, or “You, sir, are no Jack Kennedy.” I think that he will try his damnedest to get in such a line in the later debates, but not in this one. It could backfire on him. Gore, often a quick wit despite his wooden image, could probably turn any such line right back around on him.

Keep it locked right here for all the fact-checking, fallacy-spotting, policy-bashing, and cynical sighing, as Great Debates Debates the Debate!

Dr. J

My predictions:

[ul]
[li]Bush will be declared the winner in this debate, simply by virtue of having performed better than “conventional wisdom”–that is, he won’t make an ass of himself.[/li][li]Dubya will therefore be the one who gains in the polls, despite appearing less knowledgeable and articulate than Gore about most issues.[/li][li]Gore’s a fierce debater. I agree with DoctorJ that he won’t be afraid to go for the jugular, especially if Bush tries a witty throwaway. Bush might try a witty throwaway anyway–he’s banking on his charm and accessibility.[/li][li]Clinton will be invoked by both sides, but not by name. Gore will hit the prosperity issue early and often, and Bush will continue his “it’s time for a change” schtick.[/li][li]Despite Gore’s recent pledge to ban soft money, neither side will dare touch campaign finance. However, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Bush get in a Buddhist reference.[/li][li]Similarly, the death penalty probably won’t be on the radar. If he’s daring, though, Gore might touch on Gary Graham (imputing that Bush and Texas are far more flawed than the rest of the country in terms of capital punishment).[/li][li]Nader and Buchanan will force the major-party candidates to explicate their views more fully without resorting to feel-good platitudes, in the face of ideological opposition from both sides. Oh, wait…[/li][li]There will be feel-good platitudes all the way around.[/li][/ul]

cynical sigh

Gore (like Clinton) is pro death penalty …and Clinton executed a man who was, I believe menatlly retarded (or close) while Guv in Arkansas…

don’t see either guy going there

Hey whens that on? I wanna see it, I think i do anywais:)

I know I’m going to get murdered for this, but here goes:

Close your eyes & think: when was the last time we had a Prez who wasn’t from the South or California?
Tonight, we will get to see two Southerners vying for the Big One. Guaranteed you won’t see the people from the TVA region paying for their own electricity any time soon.
Guaranteed, also, is our continued Neanderthal attitude towards the death penalty (see Beagledave above).

grin Trust me, I know Gore’s pro-death penalty. And you’re right, they almost certainly won’t go there. But I can still see Gore using–disingenuously–the Gary Graham thing, and Texas’s record in particular, against Bush. If Bush ripostes with, “You hypocrite, you’re in favor of capitable punishment, too,” then Gore can make a little speech about how it’s a distasteful but necessary process which should only be carried out in the most severe of circumstances. He could, then, arguably have his death penalty and eat it, too. But yeah, he would probably be a hypocrite if he did that, unless he actually has serious reforms of the capital punishment system in mind himself. There’s a middle ground between Texas’s use of the death penalty and no use of the death penalty…but that’s for another thread.

I’ll tell ya what it was like when I come in tomorrow. Assuming the cops don’t toss me in the cooler, that is… :slight_smile:

I dunno, Gad. I think Dub will mention the “Clinton/Gore administration,” possible repeatedly. He’s banking a lot in this campaign on associating the two in the sheeple’s minds.

Folks, I’m going to miss the dog and pony show tonight–I expect a good recap in the morning! :slight_smile:

Fair point, andros. I was thinking that the choice of Lieberman has guarded Gore against explicit mention of Clinton, but upon further reflection, you may be right.

Good luck, Kimstu!

NPR had an interesting story (from the L.A. Times) about the concealed gun law in Texas. Several hundred former (and dangerous) criminals were able to get carry permits in Texas…even though Dubya had said that the state would carefully screen all applicants to assure it wouldn’t happen…

Wonder if Gore will try to use that…

Well, the debate’s over. Any thoughts on who “won”? I have no idea, I think they both made a reasonable showing.

Apparently, Nader showed up at the debate with a valid ticket, but still wasn’t let in! Yeesh, the poor guy can’t even get a seat, much less a place on the stage.

Wow, it wasn’t clear at all what issues the candidates wanted to drum into our heads! :rolleyes: Let’s review:

Number of times Gore said “prosperity”: eight

Number of times Bush emphasized his ability to work with “Republicans and Democrats”: seven

Number of times Gore used the phrase “wealthiest one percent”: ten

Number of times Bush accused Gore of using “phony numbers” or “fuzzy math”: five

Number of times Gore referred to putting Social Security in a “lockbox”: seven

Number of times Bush referred to the previous administration not getting things done: at least eight

Number of times Gore interjected in order to “just say one more thing”: upwards of twenty

Number of times Bush used the word “scare” in connection with Gore’s Medicare plan: five

Number of times Gore sighed audibly while Bush was speaking: countless

The “Could you unload that phrase a bit?” Award: Gore’s use of the term “anti-choice”; Bush’s characterization of assisted suicide as “doctors taking the lives of our seniors.”

All in all, it was very interesting.

Bush clearly went into the debate trying for the witty remark; the bit about “fuzzy math” was planned in order to deflect Gore’s charges about Bush’s plans favoring the wealthy (in my opinion, the tactic implicitly acknowledged the surface truth of those charges, but I’m probably biased), and Bush’s line about “inventing the calculator” was waaay too obviously a prefabricated zinger.
Gore, on the other hand, was pretty much determined to make a stump speech of his own devising regardless of the content of the question. An example from the very beginning: Jim Lehrer asks Gore, “You’ve questioned whether Governor Bush has enough experience to be president; can you explain that?” Gore responds immediately with, “Well, I haven’t questioned his experience, but I have questioned his proposals, and here’s why…” and then goes into a two-minute mini-speech about policy that had nothing to do with the original question. Nice work if you can get it.

On the other hand, when Lehrer asked Bush the circumstances under which a commander-in-chief should use force overseas, it really seemed as if Bush hadn’t been prepped for the question beforehand. I say this because most of the night he was reasonably articulate, but for the first minute answering that question Dubya seemed utterly at sea. His sentence structure became disjointed, his phrases redundant, and he seemed to be grasping for words. I do think Gore’s team prepared him a bit better.

Gore’s team, in fact, probably prepared him too well–I have a suspicion they told him to get the last word whenever possible, and his constant sighs and interruptions became jarring. It seemed as if he was getting frustrated that Bush wasn’t addressing the numbers he had–typical of a policy wonk, but it played a little heavy-handed.

A couple more comments. Gore talked about the constitutional right to privacy being embodied in the Fourth Amendment–correct me if I’m wrong, Bricker and Jodi, but doesn’t that come mostly from the Ninth Amendment’s “penumbra,” explicated in Griswold? That confused me.

Also, Bush’s attempted off-the-cuff joke about “big Hollywood, big trial lawyers” fell completely flat; I think he was trying to counter the Republican shibboleths that Gore had invoked by reminding the folks about some of the Democratic Party’s own loyal constituents, but it just didn’t work…it was a little bit out there, frankly, and it caused him to stop as if expecting a reaction and then have to recover to answer the question.

When Bush was talking about what he’d do in the even of a financial crisis, I could have sworn he said that he’d have someone “get in touch with financial centers, not only here but at home.” Not only here but at home?? Did I mishear this, or can someone explain it to me?

Gore’s deflection of the character attacks in order to “talk about the issues instead” was a bit too transparent, but he carried it relatively well.

Bush brought up the Buddhists, which wasn’t particularly surprising (see my above post). What was surprising, and pleasantly so, was the vehemence with which Gore used that remark, and one about the Lincoln Bedroom, to go after campaign finance reform. He really attacked with it, talking about the corrupting influence of money in politics, and I honestly didn’t think he would (see my above post). I was impressed; I hope he means it. If he does mean it, I’d be a hell of a lot more sanguine about the prospect of a Gore presidency. Nothing, on the other hand, really caused me to view Bush more benevolently…he’s amiable, he looks like Alfred E. Neuman, and while he’s smarter than a lot of people think, I don’t think he’d be a good choice for an executive.

He did say that. I thought I misheard him too, but my dad was watching too and we said the phrase at the exact same time, too. “‘not only here, but at home.’?” We had a riff, that he’d call Austin and ask if the Texas Oil Exchange went downhill.

Debate transcript: at WPNI.com

I watched this mostly on C-Span since they did that split screen thing the entire time and you could see both persons reactions. Man that didn’t help my impressions of either of them. I could imagine Gore thinking, “Why the hell is that idiot on stage?” Bush was probably thinking, “And I thought Adam Clymer was the major-league asshole!” . He seemed to be shocked and dismayed that Gore would attack into his policies. I was shocked and dismayed that he couldn’t defend his proposals better than he did.

I guess I agree that Gore more or less tried to repackage his speeches into those four minute “two-minute responses”. And Bush sounded like he crammed for the debate without really understanding the proposals. Like when he called Gore a ‘fuzzy calculator’. That (and ‘Mediscare’) was roughly the entire defense of his domestic spending proposals.

It seemed that Bush ran out of steam late into the debates, he seemed to get more flustered, (he doesn’t seem to have even thought about foreign policy, I’m still not sure what is in our ‘national interest’ in a Bush administration.) And I think theRU-486 question was very uncomfortable. (“I can’t overrule the FDA”)

However, I’m not sure how I (if I were running against Bush) would respond to that first question. You really can’t say, “Yes I think he a goddamn moron, everyone does,” though that would have been fun to see.

More thoughts to come…

Bush impressed me, in the sense he was better than I expected. In terms of the debate, I thought he came off better than Gore.

Gore failed to impress me at all–he came off as whiny and willing to break the rules, which is notan impression he wants to foster. I didn’t even like his answers on judicial appointments, which had a sub-theme of abortion–and I’m firmly pro-choice, so he should have been able to satisfy me there.

I went into it wondering if Gore could make Bush look bad enough–or if maybe Bushwould make Bush look bad enough–that I’d say the hell with him and vote for Harry Browne. I saw nothing tonight to make me abandon Bush or think any better of Gore.

Having eschewed the television as an anachonistic toy, I merely listened to the debate, while I was playing a computer game, getting drunk, and breaking a couple of laws.

As a result, I didn’t pay too much attention, and I have nothing specific to offer. So I think I am an excellent cross-sectional, visible political human-American. (Let’s forget the fact that I am a lobbyist with ironclad convictions for the moment.)

Frankly, I thought Bush did do very well–for “the Shrub.” That whole “now we’re back to the fuzzy math” thing reminded be a lot of Lou Costello yelling “first base!” But I always rooted for Costello in the “Who’s on first” gag. I got the impression that Bush was a fairly decent guy who wanted to talk issues, but was being led around a bit by a slightly more sophisticated straight man.

I felt that Jim Lehrer was allowing Gore a little too much leeway with his rebuttals–until I realized that Gore was following the rules pretty well. There was a clause for “extra time,” and Gore exploited it ruthlessly to get in the first and the last words. That’s experience talkin’. Experience in political maneurvering, but hey, I’ve seen that crap turn into irrigation water, so I know it works.

Nobody’s going to want to read this drivel, so I’ll cut it short: hey, we talked some issues here–you guys talk about 'em, I’m drunk. Gore impressed me with the depth of the experience he could cite; Bush effectively reinforced the thought that he is the executive in this race. This “compassionate” bullshit was believable on Bush’s part–I think he really wants to help people.

So which do I want, the snake or the prairie dog? Well, I’m not changing my stance, but I’ll feel a little better if the other guy wins.

Jim Lehrer’s first question–which was to Gore-- was:
Vice President Gore, you have questioned whether Governor Bush has the experience to be president of the United States. What exactly do you mean?

I’m not sure how Gore could answer that. He could have said that he is probably as experienced and any man could be to be president, but I don’t think anyone would believe him if he said that. He could has said as I phrased above, “Yes, he’s a moron.” He would have ceded the election to Bush. He could have tried to draw distinctions between being a Governor versus being a VP, but that would have sounded condensending and Bush would have comeback about all the other governors who grew up to be president (Clinton being one of them). I’m not sure that Al Gore could have successfully answered that question. Lehrer failed that remark in the respect that the question shouldn’t have been memoriable.

Jez that was rude and annoying!

I think Bush pulled his punches. He should have taken Gores hypocrasy about campaign finance reform and all the weird lies hes been telling (the union song, inventing the internet, etc) and the dirtiness of the last 8 years and kicked Gores ass with it. He didn’t. Mistake!!!
Either way, algore is arguing that 2+2=3 and Bush is arguing that 2+2=5. Their both wrong.

One thing that caught my attention when they were discussing public education and the overcrowding of schools. Gore claimed to want to build more schools and provide more funding to hire more teachers and such to cut down classroom size. However, he then said that the school system could be made more efficient by “closing schools that are failing”. Um…how exactly does that work?

It also really got on my nerves whenever Gore would sigh or start trying to interrupt Bush. How is the man supposed to keep on one topic if Gore goes of on 20 tangents while Bush is speaking?

I thought Bush did rather well, and Gore came off as dry, boring, redundant, rude, and overbearing.

[sub]I’m using the transcript at wpni.com[/sub]
Very first, raw impression. Gore seems to know more about policy stuff than Bush. He appears to have a more fully rounded energy policy (though Bush has more specific and probably had a better interim plan–how long does it take to drill for oil. If it takes years, I retract the ‘interim plan’ comment). However it was off putting seeing Gore visibly annoyed at Bush whenever he talked. Of course it was off-puting seeing Bush get teed off when Gore responded–though not as much. (Did the networks split-screen, or did they yield the full screen to whomever was speaking?) Both came off as petulant. Bush did better at the beginning. Gore did better at the end. I think Gore lost point when he tried to interrupt at every point when Bush talked about social security and budgets. Of course now, I’ve given up trying to decipher each one’s tax cut and spending and figuring whom’s the wisest. I’m leaning to Gore, but not anymore than previously. Bush didn’t present his case clearly. (Gore, I guess, shot himself in the foot when he tried to present his case.) Though I think Bush is trying to fuzzy up the numbers more than Gore and his ‘fuzzy calculator’ – whatever that is.

However Bush lost points when he tried to turn Gore’s stand about voluntary national standards into simply voluntary standards.

Was he listening to Gore? Did he think we wouldn’t or that Gore wouldn’t try to interrupt to respond? Of course education was improving in Texas before he became gov’ner.

Bush got uncomfortable, I believe when the debate turned to RU486 and the military (amazing since that’s his new theme).

I’m guessing that he was trying to be all things to all people, (which I thought was a mistake, especially he remarked later about the administration making decisions through polls.).

On international matters, he seemed way out in the waters. It’s embarassing to be taught something by your opponent. (Though not as much as Gore’s “did not” retort.)

More later…