Stalin did just that. In fact, Zhukov tried in vain to get him to withdraw from Kiev, but Stalin wouldn’t budge. Millions of Russian soldiers were surrounded and captured.
But that’s different than Pompey completely leaving Italy. You think the Soviets would have won if they had retreated east of the Urals and let all their important cities be taken?
Actually, I think they’d have had a good shot, assuming they maintained their scorched-earth strategy, perhaps leaving behind partisans to harrass the German forces. The German supply line would have been badly over-extended, unprepared to face a Russian winter, and the troops would of necessity have been pretty thinly spread. I don’t think this would have been a good way to win - the cost would have been horrific - but it probably would have worked. Especially since the Germans would have needed to commit even more troops to occupy the expanded territory they controlled, which would have softened the Western front.
Of course, it’s probably a mistake to analogize too closely between a Roman civil war and WW2’s Eastern front - but this does illustrate the point, I think, that even dramatic withdrawals can be legitimate tools for advancing one’s war aims.
I’ve long felt that the Great Khan would probably be #1. But as the thread goes on, I’ve been reassessing my own criteria, and I’m coming around to Alexander.
Alexander maybe didn’t leave as much political legacy as Caesar and Genghis, but this isn’t a “Greatest Politician” thread. He did overextend himself, but I’d argue Caesar did too – it was his own side stabbing him for “going too far,” whereas Alexander’s men simply turned back when he went too far in India.
And at least Alexander secured his base before setting out; no Senate treachery for him.
While I respect the accomplishments of the Great Khan, I don’t think he can boast the variety of military actions that Caesar and Alexander both did. Both of them understood the value of naval forces and integrated them into their strategy; both of them fought with combined arms, not just cavalry; both of them conducted unusually imaginative sieges (Alesia and Tyre). Genghis Khan’s system worked well, and I know he took cities, but (perhaps because the flexible horse hordes worked so well) he didn’t have to demonstrate the wide range of different types of engagement the other two did.
And Alexander came from a backwater and felled a gigantic empire, the largest of his day. Whereas Caesar started in a position of power and respect in the largest empire of his day.
Alexander used hard-hitting infantry but also dazzling cavalry derring-do; he made opposed river crossings in the face of superior forces; he used patient siege work (and giant siege engines) to consolidate his conquests, and rapid long-range thrusts to throw his enemies off-balance. He also gets points for being the only one of the three to oppose and defeat a vastly superior navy without significant naval resources of his own; his campaign to defeat the Persian navy “from the landward side” is justly famous.
Really any one of these three gods of war would eat most of the rest of the list for breakfast; it pains me to vote against any of them. But in the interest of East/West parity, and in recognition of Genghis’ amazing story, I’m going to vote against Caesar by a hair. As I listed them above, I feel his accomplishments roughly parallel Alexander’s, but he started with more advantages and slightly less impressive opposition (he overthrew Rome but used the other half of it to do so; Alexander overthrew Persia from the equivalent of West Virginia.)
Alexander the Great: Conquered the known world
Genghis Khan: Built the perfect war machine
Eliminated so far:
George B. McClellan
Charles the Bold
Hernan Cortez
Douglas MacArthur
Pompey Magnus
Carl von Clausewitz
Robert E. Lee
Josip Broz Tito
Zachary Taylor
John S. McCain Sr.
Titokowaru
Albert Kesselring
Curtis Le May
Sun Tzu
Gabriel Dumont
Charles Upham
Richard H. O’Kane
Charles de Gaulle
Paul von Hindenburg
Marc Mitscher
Flavius Aetius
Mehmet the Conqueror
Pyrrhus
Orde Wingate
Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck
Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban
Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao)
Hugh Dowding
Yamamoto Isoroku
Sir Isaac Brock
Moshe Dayan
Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter
Phil Sheridan
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang
Henry V
John Paul Jones
Vo Nguyen Giap
Attila the Hun
Togo Heihachiro
Bernard Montgomery
Erich von Manstein
George S. Patton
Philip II of Macedon
Gaius Marius
Akbar the Great
Arthur Currie
Yi-Sun Shin
George Washington
Oda Nobunaga
Erwin Rommel
Belisarius
U.S. Grant
Timur-e-Lang
Stonewall Jackson
Frederick the Great
Napoleon Bonaparte
Themistocles
Gustavus Adolphus
William T. Sherman
Lord Nelson
Subutai
Scipio Africanus
Duke of Marlborough
Khalid ibn al-Walid
Duke of Wellington
Hannibal
Georgy Zhukov
Julius Caesar
Same rules as before. Everyone gets one vote in each round.
The next round will conclude at noon EST on Fri. Oct. 29.
If West Virginia had first conquered all the mid-Atlantic states ( i.e. Greece ), was up against a tottering empire ( Persia was in a weakened condition by that point ) and had the finest army then in existence ( Philip’s army was a superb engine ) ;). Not to downplay Alexander’s achievements too much, but you have to be wary of overplaying them as well.
It’s perhaps a little unfair, but if we had thrown the two sandal-wearers against Genghis, I think Alexander would have been toast. Not because he couldn’t deal with nomad horse-archers - he handled the Scythians well enough and really Genghis didn’t have any revolutionary tech advantage over those folks. But Alexander was super-aggressive and a bit of an egotist. It’s easy seeing him getting separated and cut to pieces trying to outmaneuver an outmaneuverable enemy. I think the more level-headed Julius would have faired better.
Genghis Khan was Alexander and Philip of Macedon all rolled up into one. His empire was better thought out, better established, more lasting, more secure and he had a peaceful succession ( including a rough equanimity among his three surviving sons, how rare is that ). His opponents were even more formidable and not in full decline like Alexander’s. So…
as Da Winnah! Congrats to everyone’s favorite stinky barbarian overlord.
Reminds of a cartoon in The New Yorker from back during the Watergate Scandal. Two peasants are kowtowing in the mud in the midst of their burning village, bodies piled high around them, while Genghis Khan rides past, scowling, surrounded by his troops. One peasant is saying to the other, “It’s not the man I respect, it’s the office.”
Eliminated so far:
George B. McClellan
Charles the Bold
Hernan Cortez
Douglas MacArthur
Pompey Magnus
Carl von Clausewitz
Robert E. Lee
Josip Broz Tito
Zachary Taylor
John S. McCain Sr.
Titokowaru
Albert Kesselring
Curtis Le May
Sun Tzu
Gabriel Dumont
Charles Upham
Richard H. O’Kane
Charles de Gaulle
Paul von Hindenburg
Marc Mitscher
Flavius Aetius
Mehmet the Conqueror
Pyrrhus
Orde Wingate
Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck
Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban
Tsao Tsao (also Cao Cao)
Hugh Dowding
Yamamoto Isoroku
Sir Isaac Brock
Moshe Dayan
Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter
Phil Sheridan
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Kong Ming/Zhuge Liang
Henry V
John Paul Jones
Vo Nguyen Giap
Attila the Hun
Togo Heihachiro
Bernard Montgomery
Erich von Manstein
George S. Patton
Philip II of Macedon
Gaius Marius
Akbar the Great
Arthur Currie
Yi-Sun Shin
George Washington
Oda Nobunaga
Erwin Rommel
Belisarius
U.S. Grant
Timur-e-Lang
Stonewall Jackson
Frederick the Great
Napoleon Bonaparte
Themistocles
Gustavus Adolphus
William T. Sherman
Lord Nelson
Subutai
Scipio Africanus
Duke of Marlborough
Khalid ibn al-Walid
Duke of Wellington
Hannibal
Georgy Zhukov
Julius Caesar
Alexander the Great
Thank you, everyone, for playing. Hope you had as much fun as I did!
[QUOTE=Genghis Khan]
The greatest happiness is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see those dear to them bathed in tears, to clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters.
[/quote]