Greece is a mess, yes, but that's not the whole story, you racists

[friedo]

@smiling_bandit

There are three major issues going on here:

(1) Greece is a complete mess and has been for decades. In fact, it had to outright falsify its budget a few years back to squeak into the EU.

(2) It was incredibly foolish of them to join the EU, because they lost control over their currency, and they are now dealing with the consequences of that.

(3) Unfortunately, Greece hasn’t taken many realistic steps to improve their economy. They haven’t, and apparently don’t want, to roll back the piles of regulations and meaningless bureaucracy that is choking off their productivity. In many ways, austerity the ugly flipside of this failure. Greece is now a dependent state that cannot function without cash gifts from the rest of Europe, so Europe demands that Greece spend less or they don’t get any little presents.

Just some nitpickery, but please not that the EU is not the same thing as the Eurozone.

Please carry on with your Greece- and/or America-bashing. Imma get some souvlaki.

[Jackmannii]

@XT

So, you are saying that people who think that the Greeks caused much of their own problems are racists because it’s all Americans fault?

I just knew it was our fault.

[armedmonkey]

I can’t wait for future threads from foolsguinea:

“Thailand is still an emerging market economy, you sexist bastards!” and
“The devaluation of the Venezualan Bolivar was necessary, you homophobes!”

[Sage_Rat]

@Jackmannii

I just knew it was our fault.

No, just Texans.

[Terr]

@camille

This kind of bs is part of the problem. Simply not true, and easily refuted. Do you require a cite, or are you capable of doing some research before repeating this ridiculous meme?

Patchwork Pension Plan Adds to Greek Debt Woes (Published 2010)

Vasia Veremi may be only 28, but as a hairdresser in Athens, she is keenly aware that, under a current law that treats her job as hazardous to her health, she has the right to retire with a full pension at age 50.
…
the Greek government has identified at least 580 job categories deemed to be hazardous enough to merit retiring early — at age 50 for women and 55 for men.
…
Greece has promised early retirement to about 700,000 employees, or 14 percent of its work force, giving it an average retirement age of 61, one of the lowest in Europe.

[camille]

@Terr

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/business/global/12pension.html?pagewanted=all

Vasia Veremi may be only 28, but as a hairdresser in Athens, she is keenly aware that, under a current law that treats her job as hazardous to her health, she has the right to retire with a full pension at age 50.
…
the Greek government has identified at least 580 job categories deemed to be hazardous enough to merit retiring early — at age 50 for women and 55 for men.
…
Greece has promised early retirement to about 700,000 employees, or 14 percent of its work force, giving it an average retirement age of 61, one of the lowest in Europe.

Reuters (2011) - Greek hairdressing no longer “arduous and hazardous” job/Fewer than 10 pct of Greeks can now retire before 65

Before reforms introduced last month, Greek barbers and hairstylists who had turned 60 took home an average pension of about 800 euros after working just 15 years.

Some could even retire on a reduced pension at just 40 before last year, when another sweeping pension reform prescribed by the country’s international lenders took place.

Those days are over. Greece’s international lenders, the European Union and IMF, are applying heavy pressure on the government to tackle a huge budget deficit.

Last month, Greece struck hairdressers off the list of jobs deemed “arduous and hazardous” under a reform aimed at curbing early retirement and supporting a tottering pension system.

Please note the dates of this cite (and your own). Should we ignore everything that has been done to effect reform and continue to bash them, or can we have a more timely discussion? Did you look at any of the other cites I posted, here and in the other thread?

On edit: Regular retirement was raised to 67 in 2013

[get_lives]

@camille

Reuters (2011) - Greek hairdressing no longer “arduous and hazardous” job/Fewer than 10 pct of Greeks can now retire before 65

Please note the dates of this cite (and your own). Should we ignore everything that has been done to effect reform and continue to bash them, or can we have a more timely discussion? Did you look at any of the other cites I posted, here and in the other thread?

On edit: Regular retirement was raised to 67 in 2013

He is just going to troll you. Terr doesn’t give a flying fuck about facts in political debates. He probably thinks Rush Limbaugh is too sincere and a little too liberal. I’d cut my losses on this one. Your time will be wasted, guaranteed.

[camille]

@get_lives

He is just going to troll you. Terr doesn’t give a flying fuck about facts in political debates. He probably thinks Rush Limbaugh is too sincere and a little too liberal. I’d cut my losses on this one. Your time will be wasted, guaranteed.

I know about Terr. I like to think that deep down, he trolls because he loves. He’s always here, isn’t he?

[John_Mace]

They could sell the Parthenon to Donald Trump and let him put a large, golden statue of himself in it. That would generate some Tourist euros. Or, maybe they could sue all the Western countries for royalties for inventing democracy (stolen, paraphrased, from Bill Maher).

[russian_heel]

There is some truth in what the OP says.

The Greeks are corrupt, lazy, dark-skinned pieces of shit whose dependence on government handouts and welfare lead them to their current economic state, so fuck them.
.
.
.
.
Why aren’t we hearing the same vitriol for lily-white Ireland?

[VinylTurnip]

@russian_heel

There is some truth in what the OP says.

The Greeks are corrupt, lazy, dark-skinned pieces of shit whose dependence on government handouts and welfare lead them to their current economic state, so fuck them.
.
.
.
.
Why aren’t we hearing the same vitriol for lily-white Ireland?

Because Ireland gave us Guinness and Bushmills, and Greece gave us Ouzo and retsina.

[Fuzzy_wuzzy]

@russian_heel

There is some truth in what the OP says.

The Greeks are corrupt, lazy, dark-skinned pieces of shit whose dependence on government handouts and welfare lead them to their current economic state, so fuck them.
.
.
.
.
Why aren’t we hearing the same vitriol for lily-white Ireland?

Because Ireland is making the correct structural reforms. Ireland are turning the economy around. They are doing this without constantly threatening default(admittedly Ireland did receive greater financial assistance from the UK than Greece has had from the EU).

Are Greeks lazy? No. However, many of it’s public sector workers do get very sweet pensions deals. Is Greece corrupt? Yes, moreso than Ireland I’d say. Is it difficult to start a new business in Greece? Yes, the red tape is horrendous. The Greek state was also top heavy for such a relatively poor country. Along with the non payment of taxes these are the problems Greece must overcome. I think it’s possible to say all this without being labelled a racist. It’s also possible to show relative indifference to the problems of Greece, especially if the alternative is that I an an EU citizen pay for any mistakes Greece made in the past. Right now those two alternatives are the main ones on the table.

[billfish678]

@VinylTurnip

Because Ireland gave us Guinness and Bushmills, and Greece gave us Ouzo and retsina.

And Windex.

[XT]

[QUOTE=camille]
Funny that I provide facts and you think to educate me, but the drive by poster spouting bullshit is only “kind of” being “tongue in cheek”.
[/QUOTE]

Probably for a similar reason that you didn’t correct the myriad flaws in the OP but instead focused on flaws in others. We all tend to focus on the aspects we want to talk about and ignore those we don’t really want to be bothered with. To me, people exaggerating or making jokes or parodies are so common on this board that it’s practically background noise, while the OP was dead serious.

do agree that major reform is needed and will be beneficial to the Greek people going forward. And they have made some strides, at great personal cost to the population, that have mostly been ignored by the negative posters. But I’m not an economist, and I was kind of hoping to read some good ideas and analyses in that thread, so I was just a little disappointed with some of the dismissive and insensitive comments (I don’t mean you personally - you’ve actually been pretty good, considering your issues with Europe ).

Yeah, there was a lot of people just trying to score some cheap points in that thread on both sides. I can see where you are coming from but I think you are trying to use a hammer to kill gnats.

[camille]

@Fuzzy_wuzzy

Are Greeks lazy? No. However, many of it’s public sector workers do get very sweet pensions deals. Is Greece corrupt? Yes, moreso than Ireland I’d say. Is it difficult to start a new business in Greece? Yes, the red tape is horrendous. The Greek state was also top heavy for such a relatively poor country. Along with the non payment of taxes these are the problems Greece must overcome. I think it’s possible to say all this without being labelled a racist. It’s also possible to show relative indifference to the problems of Greece, especially if the alternative is that I an an EU citizen pay for any mistakes Greece made in the past. Right now those two alternatives are the main ones on the table.

Yes, these are all very fair points; the OP’s “racist” accusations were overblown. And I can understand other EU citizens not wanting to suffer the fallout, but hasn’t that pretty much already happened when the banks were bailed out?

@XT

Yeah, there was a lot of people just trying to score some cheap points in that thread on both sides. I can see where you are coming from but I think you are trying to use a hammer to kill gnats.

But XT, someone was wrong! On the internet!

[Fuzzy_wuzzy]

@camille

Yes, these are all very fair points; the OP’s “racist” accusations were overblown. And I can understand other EU citizens not wanting to suffer the fallout, but hasn’t that pretty much already happened when the banks were bailed out?

But XT, someone was wrong! On the internet!

From what I understand national taxpayers/governments bailed out national banks, though I believe some payments were made between states. This was all done in fairly quick order, most of it occuring before voters could kick any govenment out for bailing out the banks. It’s difficult enough bailing out your own banks, I think it even more difficult persuading taxpayers of one state to pay for the debts of another state.

Admittedly im biased against the Eurozone. The whole experiment imo was a political and economic disaster waiting to happen.

[hibernicus]

@Fuzzy_wuzzy

(admittedly Ireland did receive greater financial assistance from the UK than Greece has had from the EU).

That’s not right. Financial assistance to Greece included €222 billion in loans from the EU. The total financial assistance to Ireland from all sources was €85 billion of which €3.8 billion was lent by the UK.

[Fuzzy_wuzzy]

@hibernicus

That’s not right. Financial assistance to Greece included €222 billion in loans from the EU. The total financial assistance to Ireland from all sources was €85 billion of which €3.8 billion was lent by the UK.

Yes, my wording wasn’t great. I meant Ireland recieved extra bilateral assistance from the UK over and above the payments Ireland received from any centralized European fund. Irish banks also received a barrel-load of money via their parent banks based in London.

[Velocity]

I’m not sure how race became part of this debate.
If we were discussing a country like Nigeria or Ethiopia, sure, I can see where the race argument would be brought up, but Greece? And who exactly mentioned race in the Great Debates thread, and where?

[armedmonkey]

@Velocity

And who exactly mentioned race in the Great Debates thread, and where?

Nobody did. foolsguinea is just an idiot. The dude was born and raised in Missourri and wants to defend a nation he has never been to.