Thanks to both of you for your posts and info in this thread.
In case anyone is interested, here is a blog site, written by a Greek citizen in English, with first hand accounts, and translations of Greek news media reports. Some highlights:
Perhaps this will help dispel some of the myths and bullshit memes about the Greeks, and give some of you an idea of what life is really like in Greece.
I want to go back to this wealth transfer argument. The lions share of the Greek debt is now owned either directly or indirectly by the ECB. Where did the ECB get the money to loan to Greece?
They made a couple of entries into a computer and basically created money out of thin air. We’re not living in the days of gold-back currency. This is basically an accounting fiction at this point. Whether the Greeks pay back all the debt now or 100 years from now isn’t going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things from the ECB’s perspective. For them, this is all just moving around 1s and 0s on a computer.
And let’s talk about restructuring while I’m here. The debts have already been restructured multiple times. Whatever original terms were on the loans with the original creditors are long gone. When we’re talking about restructuring at this point, we’re talking about swapping out one set of made up loan terms for another set of made up loan terms.
And this is what people are complaining about. That the made up terms attached to an accounting fiction might be swapped out for another set of made up terms.
You have two options. You can look at this situation and try and figure out a solution that helps the most number of people, including the Greeks. Or you can decide that the Greeks must suffer, even if that means that the ECB never gets the money they created out of thin air back. It’s not unreasonable to ask Greece for fiscal responsibility. What is unreasonable is demanding that the Greeks push their economy over a cliff and pretending this passes as fiscal responsibility.
Oh, please. I think it’s pretty clear you had no idea of the concept of NPV before I brought it up.
The only ignorant person here is you.
You realize nobody is forcing anybody to lend or take a loan at this point? What does this have to do with anything. That’s why they are in negotiations. This is nonsense, since nobody has proposed forcing anyone to lend (and who has the authority to force someone to lend?). Strawman nonsense.
Hey, dipshit. I listed a whole list of reasons that have brought us to the present day. Talk about reading comprehension problems.
But, I do agree that Greece should just default (or unilaterally change the terms of the debt). So, why are you arguing with me if you think that’s what Greece should do? Why are you giving us lectures about “wealth transfers”?
Yeah, I do. The ECB will simply credit its account with X and then transfer X to Greece’s account. You think John Wayne is going to load up the stagecoach with a shit ton of Euros and drive it down to Greece?
Now, it can be argued that creating that additional money will have effects on the Euro that will impact individual people, but it’s not like Germany is going to go to everyone and say “Your share is 4 euros, pony up!”
It’s online, so not sure of the tone here. Are you saying that money in a computer is less real than physical money? If so, on what do you base that belief?
The US budgetary numbers are improving, which is why public discussion of the issue has been curbed. Here’s a link from 2013: The federal budget deficit is shrinking rapidly… There were actually nominal declines in outlays in the 2 years previous, for the first time since WWII.
Here are the US federal budget deficits as a share of GDP according to the OECD. You can see the decline after the stimulus, something that conservatives claimed was laughably unlikely.
I admit this isn’t especially intuitive. But I think I’ve shown that temporary budget deficits are politically plausible. 4.6/12.8 = 36% after all. Italics included so that I can emphasize that the US is not Greece. Again, you are correct to distinguish between general principles which are relatively firm and political considerations which do matter.
Finally, the Greek situation is one I very much hope to avoid in the US, which is why I oppose budget busting tax cuts in the face of pointless wars, public accounting nonsense in the form of dynamic scoring, as well as game playing with the full faith and credit of US debt. Seriously: third world style governance is something to steer clear of.
Why does chemotherapy work for a healthy young cancer patient in the early stages of cancer but not a 80 year old man in more advanced stages of cancer. Not all economies are equal.
If part of the reason why Greece is in this mess is due to the sum of small, selfish mistakes they’ve made, how much money can be made up by reversing the gifts the government gave to its people? Has any austerity measure increased the retirement age, jailed tax cheats, and increased the work week?
Think about a failing restaurant. The first impulse is to cut costs-- switch to cheaper ingredients, fire a few staff members, and cut the lunch service. This will stem the hemorrhage of cash, but it rarely works as the restaurant becomes less and less attractive to customers as quality declines. Things like reduced hours or switching to frozen fish generally signals a restaurants impending doom.
Consumer spending works in a similar way. In an economy, consumer spending is essential. When people buy lots of stuff, people start businesses to provide all that stuff, and those businesses employ people who now have lots of money to buy more stuff.
When people feel insecure, they save their money and spend as little as possible. This means fewer jobs, which leads to even more insecurity and less spending. Eventually, nobody is employed because nobody is buying anything. That’s how you eventually end up in a recession or worse.
You can’t save an economy by cutting it to the bone, just like you can’t save a restaurant by cutting quality. In a complex system, you need to find balance rather than economy.
Corruption is not a moral failing. Every society has shown it can be spectacularly corrupt given the opportunity. Corruption is a leadership strategy- it keeps people in power, motivates public servants, and provides some kind of framework (however faulty) for a state to functions. As a leadership strategy, it’s not a great one, but for very weak governments it’s probably the best they can get.
The real problem is probably in the weakness of the Greek government-- whatever it is that makes it so that they can only keep control with glorified handouts. I don’t know enough about Greece to know why that is, but there is some reason out there, and fixing that is the only way to make things work.
Ah, but every crisis is really an opportunity, my friend ! That’s capitalism ! For example, in this case, you can… that is to say, people can… I’ll get back to you on this, but in the meantime stay positive, alright !?
Greece is actually new to the Democracy system - the Republic was founded in 1975.
The European political system, with lots of parties, can lead to horrible turn-over in governments.
How many different administrations have they had in the last 15 years?
If your planning horizon is only until the next election, you just might not be excited about long-term strategic planning.
IOW: Take the money and run. Plunder and burn.
:rolleyes: :smack: