Maddux has now won 10 straight decisions, and has gone 58 (!) innings without issuing a walk.
I REALLY need to get my ass out to the next giants game in which he appears. This guy might just be the greatest pitcher in a generation.
anyway… i’m just in awe of this guy… but i’ll propose that greg maddux is the greatest contemporary pitcher out there right now.
he’s been utterly dominant for a decade now, and his only challengers are pedro martinez, randy johnson, and roger clemens.
pedro IMHO needs a few more years of dominance and a few less injuries in mid-summer to compare.
randy needs a bit more consistancy…
and roger clemens, well, as great as he has been, he’s had a few sub-par seasons. maddux, after leaving the cubs for atlanta, has been consistantly brilliant… he’s never really had a bad season.
i guess my question is this:
randy johnson, pedro martinez, greg maddux, or roger clemens… name the best pitcher of this generation.
Maddux, with Clemens close behind (for the reasons you already listed).
Pedro has a chance to get his name up there, but he’ll need 6-8 more years of what he’s been doing for the past 4. IMO, He is the best pitcher over the past 5 years. We’ll see if he can keep it up.
…so lemme get this straight, you’re even comparing Maddux to Mitch “wild thing” Williams?
Over the past five years I think anyone would be hard pressed to say the best pitcher has been anyone other than Pedro Martinez. This particular injury worries me. If, heaven forbid, he never manages to produce like he used to…he can’t very well be included. If he pitches like he has throughout his career, it’s gotta be him. Too early.
Randy Johnson became dominant too late in his career. He got K’s before but he was by no means dominant. He’ll never get to 300 wins either. Well, probably not anyhow…it’d take him five, twenty win seasons - and he’s 38.
Stats are comparable except ERA. A .30 difference is pretty big over a career. I put a lot of weight on this particular stat. He’s also an A@@hole and I would give the nod to Maddux for that reason alone.
And he’s cute too. I like what Skip Carey (at least I think its him) calls him all the time - “The Artist” but I’m not sure if he coined that term for him.
[sub]see - these are the kind of posts that happen when the board is running quickly… so sorry to interrupt…[/sub]
ESPN actually recently ran a story comparing the careers of Maddux and Clemens, calling them the best two pitchers of their generation. They gave Clemens a slight edge:
FTR, I think Maddux is better. Consistency is key, plus, Maddux is a few years younger, so theoretically can keep it up for longer than Clemens.
And man, when he was <i>on</i> in the mid 90’s, it was unbelievable. Sub 2.00 ERA? When the rest of the league was hovering around 4.5?That’s Pedro-like dominance.
Yr Tm G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA
96 Mon 33 33 4 1 216.2 189 100 89 19 70 222 13 10 3.70
97 Mon 31 31 13 4 241.1 158 65 51 16 67 305 17 8 1.90
98 Bos 33 33 3 2 233.2 188 82 75 26 67 251 19 7 2.89
99 Bos 31 29 5 1 213.1 160 56 49 9 37 313 23 4 2.07
00 Bos 29 29 7 4 217.0 128 44 42 17 32 284 18 6 1.74
Maddux’s last five years:
YR TM G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA
96 Atl 35 35 5 1 245.0 225 85 74 11 28 172 15 11 2.72
97 Atl 33 33 5 2 232.2 200 58 57 9 20 177 19 4 2.20
98 Atl 34 34 9 5 251.0 201 75 62 13 45 204 18 9 2.22
99 Atl 33 33 4 0 219.1 258 103 87 16 37 136 19 9 3.57
00 Atl 35 35 6 3 249.1 225 91 83 19 42 190 19 9 3.00
A cursory analysis reveals that Maddux has started 13 more games, Pedro has one more CG, one more shutout, Maddux has about 80 more innings (more games started will do that), allowed 60 more runs, Pedro gave up 19 more HRs, 100 more walks, 500 more Ks, equal wins, Maddux has 7 more losses, and a slightly higher ERA.
Putting together a “best of” year for each:
Pedro:
G GS CG SHO IP H ER HR BB SO W L ERA
33 33 13 4 241.1 128 42 9 32 313 23 4 1.74
Maddux:
G GS CG SHO IP H ER HR BB SO W L ERA
35 35 10 5 268.0 147 39 7 20 204 20 2 1.56
I knew iampunha was going to code stats in this thread.
I’ve heard it commented that good pitchers become better when they’re in the company of other good pitchers. It’s made mostly in the context of younger players joining a ballclub that has a couple or several skilled veteran pitchers. They compare notes, analyze at-bats and strategies, pick the veterans’ brains, and so on.
Given that, I wonder what kinds of numbers pitchers like Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez (or heck, even younger, up-and-coming types like, say, Mark Mulder) would be posting if they had equally outstanding pitchers on their teams. I don’t mean this as a slight on the teammates they currently have. But you gotta wonder how they’d all do if they were surrounded by pitching genius.
Conversely, I also wonder how Maddux, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz would perform outside Atlanta. I don’t really want to find out on that one, of course but it is interesting to think about.
That’s funny. I always thought that the performance of a pitcher is more dependent on how skilled the rest of his team is, not the other pitchers. The only pitchers I can think of that would create some sort of impact would be the relief pitchers, occasionally costing the starting pitcher a win, or saddling them with an additional earned run or two.
From that point of view, one might argue that the pitchers in Atlanta have a slight disadvantage (While I don’t buy the theory that Atlanta’s bullpen has been a perennial bunch of dog poo, that was definitely the prevailing sentiment through large portions of the 90s).
The only way I can think of in which having other good starting pitchers helps is if the pitcher in question isn’t the ace of the staff, and thus doesn’t wind up going against the ace of the opposing staff. This argument doesn’t really apply to the pitchers in question here, though, as they are all the number one starters of their respective staffs.
The other side of the coin, of course, is the offensive stats of the team. This is why I think that wins and losses are a little irrelevant compared to stats like ERA. Look at Roger Clemens this year, for example. Sure he’s won 15 games, but he has the best run support in the major leagues, while only having the 13th best ERA in the AL. That definitely skews some of the win/loss numbers.
iampunha:
I think your 5-year comparison of Maddux and Pedro is biased in favor of Martinez. You’re comparing Pedro at his peak to Maddux just after.
The Best of our generation? Solely on pitching? I’d have to give the nod to Clemens. He’s 15-1 so far, and may get yet another Cy Young! And the man can still dominate a game.
[sub]for the record, let me state that I loathe Clemens, as I do all Yankees![/sub]
Who is currently the best? Pedro Martinez.
This is not a slight against Maddux at all. He will most certainly go into the Hall of Fame. Great pitching, great fielding, and not too shabby with the stick. I think Maddux is smarter and craftier, but not nearly as overpowering.
I knew I should have reworded that. Obviously, the bullpen and offense have great impact on the outcome of every game. Many times I’ve seen masterful pitching performances wasted because of ineffective relievers or zero run support. What I meant was this: I wonder how having other outstanding pitchers on staff would affect the long-term development of an individual pitcher. How much is a player shaped by those around him?
I need to get some sleep, so I can’t elaborate now, but I hope you catch my meaning.
By the way, my vote also goes to Maddux. I admire his finesse and consistency, and would take that over power pitching any day.
As a Braves fan, I’m a bit biased. However, I believe that Maddux is the greatest. My Uncle, God rest him, made the same comment to me shortly before he passed. I value his opinion very much. If it hadn’t been for WW2, he would have pitched professionally for the Reds.
In reference to the comment about being surrounded by great pitchers to improve performance, just look at the Braves pitching staff. It is known league wide for its’ performance. If you had to face Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz for a series, wouldn’t you be intimidated?
Pitchers keep coming to Atlanta and having great years. Latest example, John Burkett. I think there’s something to AudreyK’s theory about good pitchers making each other better (not to belittle the role of coaching.)
Another vote for Maddux here. Seems I recall seeing some telling stats once showing a year-by-year analysis of individual pitchers’ ERA versus league average ERA. Maddux was one of the all-time greats in that department.
Maddux is phenomenal. The fact that he puts up the stats he does without being a power pitcher shows how he has mastered the art of pitching. (Does he have the greatest control of all time?)
In modern times, he’s right up there. He has walked 733 men in 3318 innings prior to this year. Some others like him:
Bret Saberhagen has a slightly better ratio, but hasn’t pitched as many innings (471 walks in 2574 innings up to 2000.) It’s a shame that Saberhagen kept getting hurt; he could have been as as great as Maddux or Clemens.
Ferguson Jenkins, the only Canadian in the Hall of Fame, is well known as being the only man to strike out more than 3000 men but walk fewer than 1000. Jenkins walked 997 men in 4501 innings, just a hair more than Maddux but over a much longer career (so far.)
Robin Roberts has the bst control of any pitcher I can find post-WWII: 902 walks, 4689 innings. Roberts was the ultimate control pitcher; he basically put everything in the strike zone. I’d say he is the best in the modern era.
Don’t forget that he while he may have benefited from pitching for Atlanta for a number of years he also had some good years with the Cubs, too. If I recall correctly, he won his first Cy Young award while pitching for a Cubs team that was at best mediocre, and I don’t know that the Cubs could be considered good at any point of his career with them.
He still gets my vote for best of the generation. What amazes me is his consistency. Some guys have a great ERA, or average few walks per game, or whatever, but if you look at individual games they’re giving up 8 runs in one game and pitching a shutout in another. Maddux almost never gives up more than 4 runs a game, or walks more than 2 batters.
I tried to be unbiased, and in doing so I think I erred with Martinez. I wanted to be especially careful because I am a Braves’ fan.
I go with Maddux because he’s bound to last longer . . . he doesn’t generally have arm problems and the problems he does have aren’t threatening (toes, etc). I realize toes are important, but nobody’s career (with the exception of Dizzy Dean?) ended because they broke a toe. At least not that I can think of.
To the statement about Braves’ bullpen problems: when it’s there, it’s there. And when it isn’t, good luck. Marvin Freeman and Jeff Reardon were amazing, as was Lee Smith. Wohlers was good for a while and the Braves really have had too many relievers at several points, such that they got rusty because they weren’t used very often. But these days I think they have a really reliable bullpen. Karsay and Reed have really done well.
Venkman makes a good point. Maddux has given up five runs in the first inning exactly once. And while his hits and ERA have fluctuated some, his record (19-2 season aside) really hasn’t. The past few years (with the exception of '96, not one of his better years) have been fairly static, I think. His ERA has gone between 2.2 and 3.0 in the past few years. Martinez has gone from 3.7 to 1.74. And Maddux has consistently, I think (so I seem to remember), been below league ERA. One year I believe he was less than half of it.
You are correct. According to Baseball Reference, except for Maddux’s first two years with the Cubs, his ERA has always been lower than the league’s.
Actually, according to the same site, Maddux actually managed that twice, in 1994, when his ERA was 1.56 and the league’s was 4.26, and again in 1995, when his ERA was 1.63 and the league’s was 4.22.
I like what Skip Carey (at least I think its him) calls him all the time - “The Artist” but I’m not sure if he coined that term for him.
but it is interesting to think about.