This is slightly off, in a couple of respects. I was originally arguing against someone earlier in this thread who asserted that Maddux’s peak was clearly better. All I had to do was show what you state above. But every bit of evidence actually supports the opposite case–not just that “there’s definitely a good argument to be made that Koufax’s peak was better,” but it’s almost undeniable, no matter how you define “peak.” If it’s one pitch, one inning, one game, or one series, Koufax’s best is far more impressive than Maddux’s best, but the minimum reasonable standard for a peak would be a whole season, which is to Koufax’s advantage. I’m not sure when Maddux catches up, but Koufax’s best season is clearly superior to Maddux’s best year, and his second best-year is superior to Maddux’s second-best, etc.
I would guess that it’s not until sometime like their fifth or sixth best seasons where Maddux gains an edge, by which point K has accumulated a huge lead so I’d guess again that Maddux would not actually pass Koufax until maybe a few years down the road from there. I’ll guess that Maddux passes Koufax in total career Win Shares somewhere around the seventh or eighth yar. I’ll do a running tab and report back, but it seems impossible to argue that Koufax’s peak isn’t clearly more impressive if Maddux doesn’t gain a Win Shares edge until you’re counting years from Koufax’s early period, obviously long before his peak.
I’m calling total shennanigans on this one. “Lofunzo” gets his ass handed to him later in the thread, as he displays a complete inability to understand that averaging 6+ IP per game and having a sub-4.00 ERA constitutes averaging a Quality Start over the last X years. (He doesn’t get that anything less than 4.50 ERA means 3 ERs over 6 innings.)
Omitting the specific years (I’ll list them if anyone wants), I’ll list three columns below: Koufax’s top win shares season (according to James’ WIN SHARES book), Maddux’s top WS year, and the running advantage Koufax has:
After which it’s all Maddux, of course. Not quite the 7 or 8 years I had imagined, but Koufax holds a lead in Win Shares through season five, and ties Maddux through their six best years. I think you’d have to concede that Koufax had the better peak.
Unless you think Win Shares don’t apply across eras, as someone asked. Except that’s what Win Shares were designed to do—eliminate all biases, so that playing on a winning or losing team, playing in a hitter’s or pitcher’s park, in the AL or NL, in the 1920s or the 1990s, as a pitcher or a hitter—none of this matters. Win Shares were designed to make all such issues moot, so they’re perfect for looking at a series of seasons from different periods, and treating them fairly and equally.
Wow, I don’t get the Maddux adoration. He was like Jack Morris with an extra 5 years. Koufax could dominate. He was like Gibson. When he was on you were overmatched.
I wasn’t offering myself as a character witness for any of these bozos on an anonymous website that I’ve never visited befoe today. What he does or doesn’t understand about baseball or math or particle physics is utterly irrelevant. I was asked for evidence that people had discussed Maddux’ reputation for begging out of games, and this is clear evidence that this subject was raised.
Edit (for a non-member): (sorry, PRR - I’m not trying to pile on.)
But getting negative opinions regarding Maddux confirmed from a Mets fansite isn’t very useful. If I wanted to document the fact that John Elway is clearly descendant from a beaver, I’d just go to the nearest Chiefs or Raiders fansite, which I’m sure has plenty of cites for me to use. Doesn’t mean they’re valid in any way.
Regarding your Baseball Musings cite (and I love Baseball Musings, they’re one of the few RSS feeds I get):
Sure it is, for showing what I said I could show: that Maddox had a reputation for begging out of games. Obviously, the Greg Maddux Fan Club would be a pretty unlikely place to find such views tolerated. But it was widely discussed among people eager to consider him without a whole lot of regard for his feelings.
Put another way… Amongst Yankee fans, does Derek Jeter have a reputation of having good range? Yes. Is that a valid reputation based in reality? No.
Look, baseball is chock full of anecdotes of players acting like children. And many of them are well documented by sportswriters who are around the guys every day for 6 months. Of Greg Maddux’s 744 games, do you have any documented instances of him begging out early for what would appear to be a bullshit reason (i.e. to save his ERA) that would constitute building a reputation of doing it on at least a semi-regular basis (let’s say 3-4 games a year)? Or could it be a simpler explanation - that he was such an efficient pitcher and used so fewer pitches than other pitchers it just SEEMED like he was pulling himself early?
I didn’t even say I agreed with it, just that it was discussed widely. It was strange to see him leave a game after 60 or 8- pitches, when he was getting outs and didn’t appear to be hurt, but he’s in charge of his reputation, not me.
I see your point, but my original post was more of a commentary on the HOF voters (and by extension the difficulty in getting a unanimous result from any group of voters where n>1) than the merits of any given player.
And I just might be one of those moron voters had I the opportunity. I’d probably vote for the deserving in the long run, but some part of me is rankled at the idea of placing anyone above Ruth, Cobb, Hornsby, Williams, etc.
Let’s see, Maddux had a 2.54 ERA for the 1990’s, while Morris’ lowest season ERA was 3.05, incidentally the only time season in which Morris clocked in under Maddux’s career ERA of 3.16. Other than that, they were virtually the same player.:rolleyes:
I know it’s a hard concept to grasp, but Maddux was one of the most dominant pitchers of his era. The problem with dominating opponents with finesse is that it isn’t as impressive as rushing it up there at 98, striking out 14, what have you. And you get a bunch of yahoo’s going “I don’t see what the big deal is.”
There’s a reason scouts look for speed in pitchers, and it ain’t because pitching to contact at 87-91 mph is easy.
Well hang on a second. I think my statement is reasonable—it’s clearly possible to pick defensible standards by which Koufax’s peak is better than Maddux. But it’s not clear by every bit of evidence. Maddux’s top two ERA+ seasons are, by far, better than any of Koufax’s. I also don’t think you can blindly compare IP numbers across eras, especially as Maddux’s two best seasons were strike-shortened. You’re comparing Koufax’s 40-start seasons to Maddux’s 25-start seasons.
Even if Maddux did, how is this a negative? Working the umpire could very well be a skill. And regardless, getting a friendly strike zone has real value. I’m don’t see why this should be held against him.
Why? Even if all he’s doing (by allegedly begging out of games) is protecting his ERA, that means by if he stays in the game, he’s going to start giving up runs at a greater rate than he normally would. Is this what you really want? Why is it a bad thing for a pitcher to want to come out when he’s losing his effectiveness? Especially a pitcher who seemed to have as great a grasp of the game as Maddux had.