Grounded or Ungrounded: Which one kills again?

It seems like every other CSI I watch, the cause of death is being grounded or ungrounded when electrocuted.

I always heard being grounded is safest, which is why houses have lightning rods. When lightning strikes, it has a path to pass through the house and then exit through the ground.

However, on an episode of CSI, the victim’s watch created a ground with the frame of a jeep and the electricity passed through him, stopping his heart.

And then, there’s the old advice about not handling electrical appliances when standing in water. Does standing in water ground you or unground you?

Also, if I’m standing in an open field and get struck by lightning, could I just grab a fork, stick it in the ground, and ground myself?

I’m sure I’m mixing up several very different situations so clarification is appreciated.

Being grounded provides a good path for electricity to pass through your body to the ground. This is a bad thing for you as it means you get shocked. Being grounded is only good for something designed to have electrical current passing through it. Of course if you’re not in contact with any electricity then it doesn’t matter that you’re grounded.

A grounded electrical system is safe. An ungrounded is unsafe. And if you touch an exposed wire, you become the ground and get zapped. A fork in the ground, during lightning strike, will still complete the circuit through you; so that will not help.

Well, being grounded makes you part of the pathway for a voltage potential (live wire, lightning) to go to ground. So being insulated (not grounded) protects you to an extent, as long as the voltage potential is greater than the breakdown potential of your insulation. A pair of thick rubber boots may help with a 240 volt ac current, but lightning will blow you right out of those rubber boots (and possibly anything else you may be wearing).

A lightning rod works because it is physically higher on the house and has a large current capacity (thick copper strap) down to earth - the current flows through the rod and strap to earth without hitting the house itself (which is a poor conductor and violently objects to being forced to carry the current of a lightning strike by heating up and flying apart).

Water (which is actually an insulator when very pure) both conducts electricity and increases contact area round the feet/contact site. However, it can also serve to conduct current over the wet skin, as opposed to through the body and heart. YMMV.

If you are out in a lightning storm, get lower than anything else around (e.g. go down hills). Stay away from tall trees that may be a preferential strike point, and maybe crawl under a shrubby bush or hawthorn/bramble - the thicket of branches may conduct current around you, not through you. Try to have only one point of contact on the ground (i.e. feet together). A nearby lightning strike creates a ground potential wave that can electrocute you from one foot to the other if they are separated. Or get in a car - the metal body will conduct electricity round you, and the tyres act as insulation. However, if you are in a car that has hit a pylon and cables are draped over it, stay in the car until someone kills the current in the cables. The tyres may be insulating the car from earth, and as you get out, you may become part of the circuit to earth.

That CSI episode was a bit far-fetched - the roll-bar was almost certainly grounded to the rest of the jeep, so the driver could not form any meaningful low-resistance path between the bar and the chassis, even with the watch. It would have been better if the dangling cable had produced sparks all up the hood of the car, producing blindness in the driver causing him to go off the road, IMHO.

Si

Wow a TV show/ movie was scientifically inaccurate! Next your gonna tell me not everything I read on the Internet is true. :smiley:

You don’t want to be grounded.
You want something else to be grounded.

Electricity likes to flow through paths with little resistance. A direct-to-ground connection is one such path. That’s what a lightning rod is. That’s what you with a fork is.

Such an thing may be quite entertaining for bystanders, but it may also be slightly hazardous to your health.

This is going to take a bit of explaining.

When you are talking about lightning, you are talking about a charge differential that has built up between the earth and the clouds. What you have are two big charged areas, one negative and one positive, with a great big air gap in between them. A bug zapper is the exact same thing, on a much smaller scale, so you can really think of lightning as a really really big bug zapper, and you are the bug. Lightning is generally going to take the easiest path it can find to ground, and a tree or a great big metal pole (aka a lightning rod) will generally make a better path than some yutz inside of his house. So, in this case, it is better to have a great big grounded thing nearby, because the lightning is more likely to strike it.

A couple of lightning tips. Don’t stand next to trees. They are big which makes lightning more likely to strike them, and the lightning bolt can jump from the tree trunk, through you, and go into the ground. The lightning bolt just jumped a few miles from the clouds to the ground, so the little jump from the trunk to you is no biggie for a lightning bolt. Even if just a fraction of the bolt jumps out and hits you, it can turn you into toast. The second thing is that lightning contains a lot of energy, and it can heat up the sap in the tree so quickly that the expanding sap gasses blow the tree apart. You can be hit by tree shrapnel, or a big limb (or even the entire tree itself) could fall on you.

Don’t stand on a porch. People think they are safe because they have a roof over their head. Porches, overhangs, open garages, open sided picnic pavilions, and the like are a really bad place to be in a lightning storm.

Cars protect you, but it has nothing to do with the rubber tires. The metal body of the car forms a Faraday cage of sorts, so the lightning will tend to travel around the car body leaving anything inside the car untouched.

If you do have to be in an open field, crouch down in a ball until the lightning passes. Standing up tall makes you the biggest thing around, which isn’t guaranteed to get you killed, but it does make it more likely.

Ok, enough about lightning. Now let’s talk about ground. There are basically two types of electrical systems, grounded and ungrounded. The ungrounded type is safer, which is why we use the grounded type. Confused? Ok, let me explain.

In an electrical system, you’ve got your generator, some wire, and whatever stuff you have connected to it. The electricity flows in a great big circle. It goes from the generator, out through the wire, through the stuff, then back through the return wire to the generator. Break the circle and no electricity flows. If you have an ungrounded system, you can grab either the supply wire or the return wire and there’s no problem. It is only if you touch both that you complete the circle (circuit) and electricity flows.

So why don’t we use ungrounded systems for residential power? Quite simply it’s all because of Mother Nature. She likes to randomly do things like blow tree limbs into power lines and such, which makes the wires then electrically connected to the earth, and the earth is electrically conductive. So, what happens if you try to run an ungrounded system in something large like a residential electrical distribution network, you end up with a randomly grounded system instead, and it is no longer safe. It is much better to intentionally ground one of the wires and run a grounded system. That way you know that you can always safely touch one of the wires, even if what you are standing on or otherwise touching happens to make a good electrical path to ground (like a water pipe, aluminum siding, etc). Sure, we would prefer to run an ungrounded system, but it’s just not practical.

There are ungrounded systems in common use, though. They are referred to as “isolated” systems because they are isolated from earth ground (typically via an isolation transformer). If you happen to go into a hospital, look for all of the red outlets. Those are isolated outlets. Hospitals use isolated systems to stop tiny currents from things like heart monitors from going across your heart and killing you. This occurs much more easily in places like operating rooms when they have your chest cracked open, so any location that is defined as “wet” has to have isolated power. Hospitals have to spend an awful lot of time and effort keeping their isolated systems isolated though. If you look carefully, somewhere near the red outlets you’ll see a little electrical meter on the wall that looks something like this:

http://www.iaei.org/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/07djohnston_photo12_976015905.jpg

That’s part of a test circuit that the hospital uses to make sure the isolated power stays isolated.

So, being “grounded” isn’t bad. You are grounded all the time. Go touch the knob on your kitchen sink. Chances are it is metal and it makes contact through the water pipes to the earth. Touching an electrically “hot” wire while also being grounded is what is bad. In that case, you complete the circuit between the “hot” wire and the “grounded” wire, because the earth acts like a wire between you and the wire that is grounded from the electrical supply.

Your outlet has 3 prongs in it (assuming you are in the U.S., which some dopers aren’t).In an AC system, the current goes out through one wire and back through the other, then flips around and goes out through the second wire and back through the first wire, and keeps flipping back and forth like that 60 times a second (60 Hz). So, in an AC system there isn’t really any different between the wires, if they are isolated. What we do is we arbitrarily pick one of the wires and ground it. We call this the “return” or “neutral” wire, and it is relatively safe to touch, even if you are standing on electrically conductive ground. The other wire is not safe to touch, and it is called the “hot” wire because of this. Touch the hot wire while you are touching something grounded, and ZAP. There is a third wire, called the “ground” wire, which is used as a safety connection to earth ground. The neutral wire and the safety ground are both connected together at your breaker box, and they are also connected to earth ground from there as well. You may think that it is kinda silly to run a separate wire if you are just going to connect it to the neutral wire anyway, but the important difference is that the safety ground never carries current, so it is always at true earth potential. Also, if you run through the different types of failures you can get, if your electrical device (like your stove, fridge, or whatever) has a fault and the metal case of it is connected to the safety ground, in all of the different scenarios the separate safety ground is more likely to mean you don’t get shocked.

I have heard the ‘crouching’ advice so much I must ask - presumably sitting down or even lying down would be even better in those circumstances? I think my legs would ache if I was crouched for the duration of a thunderstorm.

Lying down is a particularly bad idea since it gives you more points of contact with the ground, spread over a larger area, and a significant potential difference can exist between those points of contact (resulting in you being fried).

A large number of quadrupeds (horses, cows, etc) die from this effect every year during lightning storms. The currents from the lightning strike result in a difference of hundreds of volts between the front and back legs, and crispy ungulates ensue.

Sitting down isn’t as bad, but try to keep your points of contact with the ground as close together as possible. That way, the voltage between your contact points will be limited when lightning hits nearby.

there are a lot of different cases here and difficult to answer in a nonconfusing way. i will join in the confusion.

correct answers have been given though sometimes limited to certain circumstances. to answer the original questions correctly and reply to the tv show (which i only have seen bits of, it hurts my brain to watch that type of stuff) would take a large amount of words. discussing answers given would take another large amount of words. language can be ambiguous which contributes to incompleteness. it takes a book to answer multiple technical questions.

in the USA the electrical system (single phase going to residences) uses a grounded neutral (often called a return path and color coded white). this conductor should only be grounded at one point. often at other points in the system it might be near ground potential. though there are circumstances, maybe limited to a malfunction or a specific situation, where contact with this neutral conductor could be deadly, all depends on the situation you want to set up.

i’ve heard scientists who study lightning say there is nothing you can do within a couple hundred feet of the ground to practically affect a lightning strike. lightning has just traveled miles through a nonconductive medium, you aren’t going to have much influence. lightning bolts have so much energy to dissipate they almost always split many times and take many paths to ground. to lightning practically everything is a conductor, you want to be as small a conductive path to the earth as possible if you aren’t in a Faraday cage that can handle the full current.

lightning rods for near ground structures is an unknown regarding lightning attraction as to if they work or how they work if they do.

The biggest danger from electrocution is electricity going through your heart. So if you’re holding wires of two different polarities in your two hands, that’s trouble, since the current is going to flow up one arm, through your chest, and down through the other arm. Likewise, if one of your hands is in contact with a hot wire (i.e., one held at a voltage significantly different than ground) and your feet are grounded, you’ll also have significant current flow through your heart. But on the other hand, if you touch two wires with fingers of the same hand, most of the current is just going to go through your hand, and only the current that goes the really roundabout long way around will end up going through your heart. It’ll still hurt, but it’ll be much less likely to kill you.

Ok, I read everything a few times, here’s my take:

  1. Regardless of whether you are grounded or ungrounded, electricity passing through you is a bad, bad thing.

2a. Touching water when touching a live wire is worse because water acts like a ground, causing the electricity to flow through you. (See #1.)

2b. Is this why, when lightning strikes the ocean, fish don’t get slaughtered in a very large radius from the contact point? A large amount of water will cause the lightning to disperse over a very large area?

  1. Residential electricity travels in a circle, so being grounded causes the electricity to fork away from the circle, through the ground (and very likely through you, see #1.) Being ungrounded will protect you from this forking effect.

That about covers it?

water can act as a conductor. if water is in contact with the earth or another conductor which is in contact with the earth then the water completes an electrical path to the earth, that is the danger. there is a technical distinction though for practical purposes a conductor in contact with the earth is the same as the earth.

yes to 2b

in general you want residential power wiring systems and electrical devices to be grounded and for you to be ungrounded (you aren’t in an electrical path). there are circumstances, like high voltage, where even without being grounded well it can still be dangerous to a person.