Guantanamo is STILL open. Why isn't the left bitching about it?

[Banquet_Bear]

@pkbites

The OP isn’t about Obama and what he did & did not do.

It’s about the hypocrisy of the American left. The OP has given them the opportunity to defend their protests during the Bush years and explain their, overall, lack of it, during Obamas term. So far I’m not convinced anyone has done this.

…what part of my post failed to convince you that there are substantial differences between the Guantanamo of today and Guantanamo under the Bush administration?

[Princhester]

@FinnAgain

So, other than the fact that it’s illegal for him to remove them and he couldn’t actually override Congress’ decision, why are we not all angry at Obama?

Other than the fact he didn’t create the stinking mess in the first place, you mean?

It is more than a little weird to me that the OP’s posts don’t display any obvious understanding of why people would find the guy who created the mess more blameworthy than the guy who failed to clean it up.

[ExTank]

@Princhester

Other than the fact he didn’t create the stinking mess in the first place, you mean?

It is more than a little weird to me that the OP’s posts don’t display any obvious understanding of why people would find the guy who created the mess more blameworthy than the guy who failed to clean it up.

I’ll stipulate that there’s a moral distiction between creating a mess and failing to clean one up.

Except that they guy who didn’t clean it up expressly promised to do so. That his own party cock-blocked him in the Legislature indicates either his lack of leadership, or his lack of a desire to really push the issue.

Ravenman’s links are also ample demonstration that it is a passionate issue for many people; but like pk, I’m no longer seeing the moral outrage pushed into my face a’la a Ludovico treatment on the nightly news, and on talking head talking points shows.

It’s like the MSM suddenly lost interest in pushing that news story 24/7 after Nov. 4th, 2008…

[erislover]

I’ve never stopped being upset at its existence. We just don’t hang.

[Princhester]

@ExTank

I’ll stipulate that there’s a moral distiction between creating a mess and failing to clean one up.

Except that they guy who didn’t clean it up expressly promised to do so. That his own party cock-blocked him in the Legislature indicates either his lack of leadership, or his lack of a desire to really push the issue.

Ravenman’s links are also ample demonstration that it is a passionate issue for many people; but like pk, I’m no longer seeing the moral outrage pushed into my face a’la a Ludovico treatment on the nightly news, and on talking head talking points shows.

It’s like the MSM suddenly lost interest in pushing that news story 24/7 after Nov. 4th, 2008…

All of which is compatible with seeing Obama’s blameworthiness as less than Bush’s. Even where someone vows to clean up a mess and fails, one is still not going to blame them as much for failing as one would blame the person who made the mess in the first place. The more so since as you admit there are reasons why the person failed (even accepting you don’t accept those reasons as being totally exculpatory).

There seems to me to be a perfect correlation between what levels of outrage one would expect based on relative blameworthiness and what levels one finds there actually is. I’m having trouble seeing the need to resort to hypocrisy as an explanation.

[elucidator]

Is it too obvious that he didn’t get really briefed until he got the job?

[GreenElf]

@pkbites

Is it because Bush isn’t President any more?

All the left did was bitch, and BITCH, and **BITCH **about Gitmo when W. was POTUS.
It’s been over 3 years and it’s still open.

But, overall, not a peep from the left. Obama has less than a year to go on something he claimed he would deal with early. Why is his feet not being held to the fire?

Have some honor. If your answer is “because Bush isn’t President any more and I used it as something to hold against him”, as disgusting as it is, I will accept your honesty.
“Because Obama found out how hard it is to get things done” does not excuse your silence on an issue you claimed to care so deeply about not so long ago.

Although I voted for him, or rather against the previous administration, Obama isn’t getting my vote next election. For this reason as well as a few others. He’s too Republican-lite. I also recall the Democrats saying during the last election run that they would “look into” the high gas prices. The only Democrat I’d vote for is Kucinich.

[pkbites]

@GreenElf

The only Democrat I’d vote for is Kucinich.

Yep. Me too.

After all, if we’re going to run this fucker we call America into the ground, we might as well go nuclear-medieval on it.

See ya at the reunion. :rolleyes:

[Banquet_Bear]

…so I take it that you don’t actually want a debate pkbites? Thats fine with me: but I would suggest that you posted your rant in the wrong forum.

[tagos]

The President tried to close it but the right-wing noise machine and their Republican allies, along with gutless Democrats made sure it could not happen.

[What_the]

@John_Mace

No, he gets cut some slack because he’s not a dictator, and Congress blocked any effort to shut the facility down.

And because he is a Democrat, right?

[Ravenman]

@What_the

And because he is a Democrat, right?

John Mace is not a Democrat. He isn’t even a liberal.

[Kevbo]

Any time I start to feel betrayed by our president, I just seek out John McCane’s commentary on the week’s issues and that feeling usually fades. In serious cases I might need to invoke a Palin cure.

[Aji_de_Gallina]

@FinnAgain

So, other than the fact that it’s illegal for him to remove them and he couldn’t actually override Congress’ decision, why are we not all angry at Obama?

Obama is a constitutional scholar, a great “knower” and “understander” of the law. As I said, if he promised closing Guantánamo he was knowingly saying something false or he surrounded himself with an incredibly incompetent groups of advisors.

@Princhester

Other than the fact he didn’t create the stinking mess in the first place, you mean?

It is more than a little weird to me that the OP’s posts don’t display any obvious understanding of why people would find the guy who created the mess more blameworthy than the guy who failed to clean it up.

He voluntarily run for President. Once you’re sworn in all the problems are yours to solve, you don’t get to pick; especially when you said you were going to solve that problem which you knew beforehand existed.

@elucidator

Is it too obvious that he didn’t get really briefed until he got the job?

I don’t buy it. Guantánamo wasn’t an obscure article in a 1794 treaty with the Knights of Malta, it was front and center and the problems Obama “found” were exactly the ones that were talked about here and elsewhere all over the media.

[John_Mace]

@Aji_de_Gallina

Obama is a constitutional scholar, a great “knower” and “understander” of the law. As I said, if he promised closing Guantánamo he was knowingly saying something false or he surrounded himself with an incredibly incompetent groups of advisors.

Like I said, everyone who campaigns from president “promises” to do things that only Congress can do. It’s stupid, but they all do it. I see no reason to single out Obama for that. Politics is about the possible, and while Obama has been pretty good at delivering on his campaign promises, there are plenty on the left who are pissed off and disappointed. But they had a choice to vote for Obama or McCain, and I can’t imagine any regret that vote. Not to mention that Hillary would have had the same problem if she had gotten the nomination.

[Gadarene]

@Banquet_Bear

…there is something incredibly frustrating and annoying with your OP. For starters I have to ask you: do you know what many of the protests regarding Guantanamo Bay were? Feel free to search for any of my old post regarding the detention centre: I’ve held a consistent position since Guantanamo Bay was opened. Your OP is one big huge strawman.

Guantanamo Bay was a dragnet: innocent people were shipped over from Afghanistan and Pakistan and Ghana and Eastern Europe. Bakers and foot soldiers and taxi drivers were labeled the “worst of the worst” by the previous administration and the real masterminds of Al Qaeda were locked up in secret prisons scattered around the world. They were shipped there because of administration errors, or due to bounty payments, or straight out incompetence. And once they were locked up the administration didn’t have a plan on what to do with them. The innocent were locked up with the guilty, then they were assumed to be guilty and pressed for intelligence on Al Qaeda that they obviously didn’t have.

What has changed since Guantanamo opened? Well it took several years but eventually most of the obviously innocent got released. of course, some of them cannot walk any more, another one is nearly blind, some others had all of their possessions taken away and all of them lost years of their lives because America fucked up.

And as the years have gone on more of the less-obviously innocent have been released. And the prisoners previously held captive at the secret prisons around the world ( you know about those, right? Its where the “worst of the worst” actually got sent.) have been flown to Guantanamo.

So right up until about 2007 Guantanamo had a population that was probably 10% very bad people and 90% who had nothing to do with the war on terror. Right now? I’d venture to say that this figure is probably reversed.

Do I still want Guantanamo Bay closed? Absolutely. And Obama tried to close it: but his own party and the American people were too cowardly to do it.

But most of the innocent are now free. So please stop pretending that the Guantanamo Bay we were protesting about ten years ago is the same Guantanamo Bay as it is now. The camp as it stands is still a travesty, a disgraceful incitement on the American people who collectively lost their minds in the aftermath of 9/11.

At its peak Guantanamo had nearly 800 detainees. Right now, inflated by the prisoners flown in from the secret detention camps, Guantanamo has 171 detainees. The situation at Guantanamo now is not the same as it was when it opened and it is not even the same as it was back in 2009. And if you don’t understand those differences you need to do more research.

So I need to put the question to you pkbites: you’ve stated you have supported Guantanamo from the beginning. Over six hundred prisoners have been released from Guantanamo: what do you know about any of them? Why were they detained? What threat did they pose? What evidence did you see that convinced you that these people needed to be detained? How many of the Combatant Status Review Tribunal reports have you read?

You should start with the Denbeaux report. That should give you a good primer on exactly who the people were that used to populate Guantanamo Bay.
http://law.shu.edu/publications/guantanamoReports/guantanamo_report_final_2_08_06.pdf

Then maybe you could come back and explain to us all why you supported a fucked up idea for the last ten years which has no doubt inspired more terrorists, directly ruined hundreds of peoples lives, fucked up Americas reputation internationally, caused a big huge fucked up legal mess that after ten years still hasn’t been sorted, has been a fucking drain on the US economy, resulted in a huge amount of intelligence “noise” which probably contributed to the delay in capturing Bin Laden: and was generally one big huge fuck up.

Lets be honest here for a minute: Guantanamo was a fuck up of epic proportions: it was a fuck up due to the actions of the Bush administration and it was a fuck up because the American people, like you pkbites, allowed it to be.

Why are people ignoring this post? It’s by far the best and most cogent in the thread.

[Hamlet]

@Gadarene

Why are people ignoring this post? It’s by far the best and most cogent in the thread.

People aren’t. pkbites certainly is, but c’mon what did you expect?

[YogSothoth]

Obama can close it and here’s how:

Little by little, start turning the place into a minimum security posh Norwegian prison. Exercise yards, cable TV, no hard labor, libraries, schooling. Ample personal time for prayers and group activities. Maybe even build an on-site mosque and teach Islamic classes there. Leak this info out to the press and the GOP will run, not walk, to have it torn down.

[Ravenman]

@YogSosoth

Obama can close it and here’s how:

Little by little, start turning the place into a minimum security posh Norwegian prison. Exercise yards, cable TV, no hard labor, libraries, schooling. Ample personal time for prayers and group activities. Maybe even build an on-site mosque and teach Islamic classes there. Leak this info out to the press and the GOP will run, not walk, to have it torn down.

Congress, not the President, controls the budget for military construction projects.

[YogSothoth]

Bah, facts!