No, we are not technicians. Technicians in the computer industry are people who fix broken computers. While I can do this, and have done this for a living, that is not what I do now. Allot of what I do is systems administration, managing the day to day administration of the servers in my care, but I also am involved the design of the server and network configurations in my lab, in designing permisions structers and evaluating hardware, designing security and backup stratagies, network configurations, and directory services. Its allot more complicated than being a tech,and its not something you can learn in school and get a degree in because the technology advances so fast that by the time you get your degree everything you have learned is obsolete…
So things work a little differant in the computer world. Engineer kinda fits, but if they had asked me, I would have chosen Grand Sorcerer of Infomation Technology, or something like that, but they didnt ask me. If it is against the law(I also live in texas), then the cops have really been slacking off because the have been using the word engineer in computer certification names for a decade or so in this country, and there are thousands with it on thier business cards, websites, etc.
Question: was the term “Systems Engineer” developed before or after the institution of licensure of Engineers in the 1930s (like the term for boiler operating engineers and locomotive engineers)?
And even if it were (it definitely wasn’t), would that matter? Many barbers used to practice surgery long ago. Back then, they could rightfully be called surgeon (but not doctor). They no longer can, by operation of law (except for those barbers who are also licensed as medical doctors speciallizing in surgery).
Also, most “systems engineers” fall under the industial exemption- they work only as employees of a company and provide no services as “systems engineers” outside of that company. If they are acting outside of this exemption, and they are in Texas, don’t let me know about it, because I am bound to report violations of the Texas Engineering Practice Act to the Texas Board of Professional Engineers for enforcement action.
Just saw ScoobyTX’s post (which came up while I was composing mine). Good info. Thought I remembered something about TX being different from most other states on this.
In my state (NJ), a company can’t call itself an engineering company (e.g. “Wireless Engineering, Inc.”) without at least one P.E. as at least a principle in the organization, but even then, that P.E. is not required to review all work, and there’s nothing to prevent a consulting firm such as mine from providing “engineering services” to those wishing to “purchase” them.
(Of course even here in NJ, certain activities - signing off on structural drawings, for example - absolutely do require a PE)
YOu better get busy, My old company, Computer Sciences Corp, employs about 80,000 people, as a consulting company, and I would guess they probably have abou 20,000 or so that hold microsoft or cisco or novell certs with the word engineer used in it somewhere. I would guess 3 or 4 thousands of them are here in texas, thats ath www.csc.com. let me know how it goes. , because like I said, this has been going on for a decade or so, and others have tried to stop it and basically been laughed at for thier efforts.
I personally work in house now, otherwise you could try it on me.
I completed a 20 year “career” where I was refered to as an “engineer”, specifically as a member of the U.S. Navy. I installed, operated, maintained and repaired nearly every piece of mechanical equipment that is required on a modern warship. Since then I have worked in a shipyard as an Outside Machinist. Without a college degree I have,using drawings and technical specifications developed by others, fabricated, contructed, installed, troubleshot, calibrated and brought to realisation some of the most advanced equipment known to man. But in my opinion I was not an “Engineer”, I was a technician. I learned my job by reading the results of someone elses work. I was the caretaker for someone elses ideas. I loved my job but firmly believe that the real engineers were the ones who had the knowledge and training to develop the tools that I worked with.
Engineers have the knowledge and training to develop the ideas.
Technicians bring them to life.
I’m in the same position as wireless, as are many of my coworkers. Are we supposed to turn our employers over to the police for putting “engineer” on our business cards?
Unless you have the knowledge to develop the hardware or software to make it work, then you are a technician!
Making two or twenty computers talk to each other is not that big of a feat when you have the technical specifications, already developed by someone else, sitting in front of you.
Chill out, stop worrying about your title and get on with your life
Nope. I dont worry about my title, actually, my title is NT Systems Administrator, but I do hold an MCSE certification.
Again, in the IT world, technician is someone who does repair, or installation.
Really??..How about 15,000 or so, because thats how many there are on my network. And no, a 15,000 node lan doesn’t come with an instruction sheet on how to set it up like model airplane kit…Because there is no set way to set it up.
There are a million ways to make those 15,000 computers talk to each other…some better than others. There are millions of ways to secure the data on those computers(and given ITAR restrictions I could go to prison for one little screw up), to back up the data, to setup fault tollerances so that if one server goes down another takes its place without the user knowing it. Load balancing between servers, network routing between subnets and firewall precdures have to be designed, yes desinged…we are not talking about hooking up a VCR here, we are talking about months of planning, involving millions of dollars in labor and hardware. Then we get to security and permsions. How devices in the directory structure are organized so that a 15,000 node network is manageable.
You think it is no big deal? You havent a clue what is involved in all this, but let me tell you, it isnt just reading"the technical specifications, already developed by someone else, sitting in front of you" Because you are dealing with hardware made by dozens of venders, in an ever changing enviroment. There are litteraly hundreds of people involved in running our LAN…Some of them are techs. And thats just our local LAN, we have many sites like this.
I set up a system with servers at remote test sites all over the world replicating data back and forth in real time as test were conducted on military aircraft. The cost for downtime was $20,000 an hour if it didnt work. It was not tech work.
I have never called myself an engineer, but I am sure as hell not a fucking technician.(NOTE: I am not putting down techs, I was a tech for many many years, but I have paid my dues and I have worked hard to get to where I am today).
And if you are a computer/network technician, it is probably just a impressive “throw-away” title so that they can pay you a salary instead of overtime.
bdgr- if any CSC employees give me a card and offer to do engineering work under the aegis of CSC, I’ll let the TBPE know, since they are not a registered firm (I just checked).
Congratulations. You are not calling yourself something you are not. Maybe your colleagues can get with the program and do the same. Maybe they can think up a word that isn’t already taken, instead of trying to misuse the word “engineer,” which already has a legal definition.
Well…It doesn’t make less sense than forbidding people to refer themselves as “doctors”, for instance. After all, why couldn’t I call myself “doctor in gardening” or somesuch? I think it’s quite arbitrary. I don’t know how it works in the US, but certainly here engineers have diplomas delivered by specialized schools (not by regular universities). So, after all, the title going with such a diplomas could be protected in the same way university grades are.
I don’t know if there are any rules here preventing people from calling themselves engineers if they don’t have the proper diplomas (for instance when they began their career with a lower level of training and devellop their skills later without ever attending any schools…but usually at least, they do attend schools). However, there are no things like the “sanition engineers” or “operating engineers” mentionned by a previous poster. So, at the very least, if the title isn’t legally protected it’s meaning is respected (what is not is the word “technician”, though there are diplomas too…floor sweepers are sometimes called “surface technicians”). On the other hand, there are “system engineers”. But I don’t know what the exact meaning of this terminology.
**
Again, MCSE is not a title, it is a cert. For instance, if I was still working for a consulting firm, I would have a business card that said
Bdgr,MCSE
Systems Administrator
Systems administrator being the title, MCSE being the certification I hold.
And Salary or hourly is based on the type of work you do, not the title. Basically, if you are resoponsable for managing your own responsabilities, you can be salary, if you have someone tell you at this time you will be doing this, you have to be hourly. I am salary. My boss doesnt have a clue on any given day what I am working on.
bdgr- if any CSC employees give me a card and offer to do engineering work under the aegis of CSC, I’ll let the TBPE know, since they are not a registered firm (I just checked). **
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Well, since CSC is computer consulting firm, they arent going to be offering to build you a bridge so I dont see this as a problem, but if they are doing IT work for you, you can expect to see MCSE on biz cards, paper work etc.
Given the size and money behind companies like Microsoft and Cisco, I think the world will probably bend to thier will and engineer will absorbed like everything else that gets in their way. In case you havent noticed, Bill Gates has no problem stepping on any law that he disagrees with. He will just contribute to somebodys campain fund, and Texas and everybody will throw an exemption in there for IT people.
Mind you, I still prefer Grand Sorcerer as a certification…
I’ve spoken out in the past here as to why the term “Engineer” should be reserved for those who are licensed professional engineers, and I am tired of being shouted down. There’s almost no point.
The Engineering profession is degraded beyond belief when someone can legally call themselves a “pizza engineer” or “sanitation engineer” on a job title. And an MSCE is not an Engineer. They may be a highly trained, intelligent, very specialized person who posseses invaluable knowledge. But they are not an Engineer. I don’t know why this is so hard.
Thankfully, dictionaries don’t specify what an Engineer or Engineering is. In fact, dictionaries don’t specify anything - they try to show the common contemporary usage of a word.
Oh, really? That’s funny, typically a P.E. means a hell of a lot more salary and more job opportunities, at least in my brief decade of experience. But it’s always nice to see engineers cast as unhireable overtrained “kids” who haven’t paid their dues… :rolleyes:
But the thing is that people can and do misrepresent themselves as to their Engineering degree and license. My Kansas State Board of Technical Professions newsletter has a whole page each issue of court cases of secretaries stamping design drawings, high-school dropouts certifying bridges, and a whole cadre of random shmoes masquerading as architects.
Whose “definition” of engineering is that? What legal basis does it have? You could make an equally sweeping definition of “medicine” to include that any mother who bandages a skinned knee on a child is now a “physician”.
In fact, IIRC, in all 50 States advertising yourself a “Professional Engineer” to the Public when you are not will get you fined and/or jailed if a complaint is made.
But then again - I expect to hear the same bullshit as always every time this issue comes up, either here or IRL. Typically, the people who are opposed to restricting the legal term “Engineer” are those who were too fucking stupid to get a degree or pass the P.E., did not have the qualifications to even take the exam, are complete dribbling idiots - or else are highly trained/degreed, intelligent, and experienced and competant individuals who feel that they need a title to increase their sense of self-worth by claiming a title with potential legal ramifications that they should not be using.
Or they have an axe to grind. To use a trite expression, “Engineers are the n****r of the professional world.” Few in my direct personal experience in the Profession are more hostile to Engineers and Engineering as a profession than lawyers and journalists, and these people typically go out of their way to belittle and demean the Profession, all under the guise of “what’s the big deal” and “chill out, d00d3”.
As to how the Media treats Engineers - feh. Every fucking season there’s innumerable Cop shows, Lawyer shows, Doctor shows - but Engineer shows? No, thank you. And Star Trek does not fucking count.
And it’s not even that Engineering is just “too boring” to put on TV. I know, and have lived with real Doctors and Lawyers, and their lives and work were/are a whole freaking lot more boring than mine. There is a definite bias, IMO, against Engineers in some parts of society. And in other parts - well shit. It seems that everyone wants the title, but no one wants to do the fucking work.
But YMMV, as always.
So as I put the final touches on my second Engineering degree, I really wonder why I bothered most of the time. So much work - Engineering is one of the absolute most difficult degree programs at the BS and MS level, thank you - and so much time spent working 60-hour weeks, then sitting for two full-day exams, and the woman-weeks of study that went into those - all so someone from my old High School can tell me how he’s an Engineer too - a “Day Care Services Engineer”. I shit you not - he works at a daycare center. He mixes Kool-Aid and changes diapers.
Only the first quote in my post is from ultrafilter. The rest of the names were lost in the C&P’ing. I’m tired, and I need an MSCE to fix my computer for me.
Good. Unfortunately, many people with MCSE are under the impression that they are “Title” Engineers. That’s the problem. Legally, they are NOT. That is the issue here.
Microsoft, Novel, Cisco et al has as much of a right to tell people/students that they are an “Engineer” as I do. If I created a BCE (Bernse Certified Engineer) I would expect to have a phone call from APEGGA and have them ask WTF I was doing. And rightfully so.
I’m sure Bill Gates doesn’t give a shit. However, it isn’t Bill Gates that going to get fined several thousand dollars. It’s going to be the poor schmoe that calls himself an Engineer when he isn’t, and that poor bastard more likely than not won’t be able to afford it.
