Guess what? You are not a "real" Engineer.

Well, as I said earlier - each issue of my Professional Engineers newsletter in Kansas has a whole page of cases just in the State of people who should not be practicing engineering doing so. And even if the number of people doing it is not large (relative to how many Engineers there are in Kansas), the number of occurances of the non-licensed people presenting themselves as licensed is normally high. Typically, these people are doing this for years before someone asks or investigates.

I personally have never been asked for my number, or any verification of my status, except by my company. The assumption is that if my company holds me forth as a PE, then they must know that I am. So personally speaking, I have never been directly questioned.

Then again, I have negotiated contracts and managed directly numerous projects, during which no inquiry whatsoever was made as to whether it was even legal for my firm to practice in the State of the client. In fact, I can’t remember once anyone asking, except one time in New York (which has a whole different set of rules than some other places do).

NinetyWt says:

Happily I find that both schools I went to were accredited so I pass this test. I thought though that some people on this thread are arguing that it is more than that.

Actually, this is the first time I have heard anyone say this. In fact, it I believe it to be in direct contradiction to what has been offered so far by those who wish to restrict the use of the term “engineer”.

Anthracite, I don’t understand where you think anyone in this thread has shown contempt for PE’s. Contempt for the idea that the term “engineer” and “Professional Engineer” are interchangeable and engineer can be used in no other context is all anyone is arguing against. In fact, I think using a word which is percieved as generic interchangeably with the non-generic term is what causes confusion for most people, and leads to the sort of reactions you described. I am still under the impression that most of the people having degrees in engineering and working in those fields do not have a PE. (If this is incorrect, please say so. Since the last time I mentioned this it went uncommented, I am under the impression that this is so.) Now, vernacular being what it is, most people refer to these people as engineers. Now you want them to refer to people who have achieved a higher distinction of PE as engineer. So in most peoples minds, it looks like before you get the lisence, you are an engineer. After you get the lisence, you are an engineer. I can understand why people who had this impression would say “never saw a use for them” under these circumstances (though I’d still think that person was a fool). If people can’t recognize that there is a distinction, it’s hard for them to afford it the respect it deserves.

Compare this to how the term doctor is used. The use of “doctor” is not restricted (at least not nearly to the degree that you are promoting that the term “engineer” should be.) For instance, there is an auto repair franchise which uses the name “Dr. Nick’s”, with no complaints from the AMA as far as I can tell. It is only the term mdical doctor which is restricted. If the AMA wanted to restrict the use of the term “doctor” to MD’s only, I would find that equally stupid.

As for where exactly to draw the line? PE’s should be refered to as PE’s. Shortening the name may be convenient, but when you do so you are the causing the public perception problems you are describing. Engineer is a generic word with a dictionary meaning and a long history of common usage to refer to a multidude of vocations. Trying to change this by legislation, whether it is right or wrong, just isn’t ever going to work.

“Doctor” is not the best analogy to use, since technically it has nothing to do with medicine, and instead refers to the level of education of having a “doctorate”. So in the case of “Dr. Nick’s Transmission”, the person of Nick is (presumably, unless Nick has a PhD in Engineering, and who may or may not be a PE…Jesus) most likely not a holder of a PhD, nor a physician. The fact that the public equates doctor==physician is another sad case of their lack of education.

As to your comments at the end - correct me if I read it right, but as to the term “Engineer”, with no other qualifiers like “Professional” - you seem to say there should be no restriction whatsoever.

Let’s look at the explicit term “Professional Engineer” and/or “PE”. What is your opinion on the penalties which should be applied for deliberate misrepresentation of qualifications as a “Professional Engineer”? The penalties in most every State I’ve seen are laughable, especially from a corporate standpoint. This is quite disappointing, given the potential harm to the public. From Kansas Statute 74-7029 (public domain, so don’t bust my chops anyone)

How do you feel about making it a felony under these terms?

I am now declaring a general amnesty. All users of the Straight Dope may legally, with my blessing, call themselves Straight Dope Certified Licensed Medical Doctors, or MD,SDLC. As a doctor and engineer, this in no way lowers the prestige of two degrees and eleven years of hard university study.

Sorry, I did mean to speak to this:

This has something to do with the particular field of engineering the person is in. Civil Engineers will not be able to do much work at all without a license; that’s because we must stamp our design drawings. As a matter of fact, I heard one of our Licensure Board members mention that Civils make up the greatest portion of PE’s in our state. Guess I could look up the stats if it interests you.

[bold]Anthracite[/bold], when we respond to a Request for Proposals from any government agency we must show proof of registration in that state. That’s why I’m registered in both Mississippi and Alabama.

Looking back at history, my opinion is that the term engineer broad later. Check this out from UCLA:

Would I support making it a felony for someone to pass him or herself off as a PE when he is not one? Sure. I totally agree that if a particular job requires the services of a PE, it should have one.

I have seen the business cards of hundreds of electrical engineers involved in computer design, microprocessor design, or the development of CAD tools. Very few (if any) are PEs - or, if they are, they don’t seem to see the need for mentioning it. In over 20 years of working in this field I have never been asked if I was a PE, and in interviewing many, many engineers, I have never asked if a candidate was one - and none volunteered it.

A lot of the professors I know I knew when they were grad students. I even mentored some of them. None of them are PEs. I’ve seen their resumes and written recommendation letters for many of them.

The reason why it doesn’t matter is that there is not one person who signs off on the correctness of software or an IC design. Verification is done by extensive simulation, by mathematical techniques, and by audits. No PE puts his stamp on the design of a new Pentium 4.

Please PEs, no one is understating the importance of your license. Please don’t try to define out large numbers of people from the field of engineering.

egad…this is like a comic opera. Nobody here thinks that an audio engineer should be presented to the public as someone who can shed light on collapsing buildings! We just think he shouldn’t be prosecuted for saying he’s an audio engineer, in my case only because it’s a traditional title for that job. I won’t speak for the other “Liberals”, but I wouldn’t condone the audion engineer’s assuming that title if it weren’t already in such widespread use.

Notwithstanding that I’m amazed that the station managers at 99.7, or whoever put the AE on, are so clueless.

I’m pretty sure that was supposed to be a joke on the stations part…You know, the absurdity of someone thinking that an audio engineer is also “that” kind of engineer. In fact, I thought it was pretty damn funny. A friend of mine became an electrical engineer, and to celebrate, some of my friends gave him an electric train set so he could practice. Same kind of thing.

I’m a PE in Michigan, with a B.S. in civil engineering. In our organization, we have three groups, all of which have engineer in the job title:

  • Professional Engineers, licensed by the state
  • Engineers in Training- passed part I of the exam.
  • Graduates of Engineering schools- have their diploma, haven’t taken or haven’t passed the test.

My job requires a PE and you can’t aspire to my rank without it. However, it does not bother me if the other groups I list call themselves engineers. They do engineering work, they just don’t have the same responsibilities or pay as I do. I think it’s a bit harsh to deny someone from calling himself an engineer when they have passed an engineering curriculum and are doing engineering work. Mind you, they can’t put PE after their names.

I’ve always heard that the vast majority of PEs are civil engineers, since for example a set of bridge plans has to be sealed but an automobile engine may not. So GM may employ people that have a mechanical engineering degree, but they may not have the need to take the PE exam. These people are in my opinion engineers. I’d like to hear more from those in areas like automobile design check in with their take on this.
As far as the software folks go- I say live and let live. Their jobs require a great deal of technical expertise and if they want to call themselves engineers, so what? As long as they don’t call themselves PEs, they aren’t deceiving me. Using the doctor analogy, we have doctors of optometry, osteopathy, allopathy, chiropractic, podiatry, etc. As long as people know what they are getting, I don’t see a problem -just put the right initials after the name.

For the garbagemen- again live and let live. If it makes them feel better to call themselves waste engineers, who cares? People that use the services of PEs are not going to be fooled.

My question for those of you who mentioned software is this:

Now that there are such B.Sc. degrees as Computer Engineering which are ABET accredited, how should I handle it when someone assumes that a Computer Engineer implies no more training or expertise than an MCSE?

It seems that even in this thread, little distinction has been made between those of us who have Engineering degrees and those people who are in computer fields who just use the term ‘Engineer’.

This is especially frustrating because I have dealt with people who look at me incredulously and wonder why it took me four years to become a Computer Engineer when, in their words, it should take only a few months and seven tests.

What way is there, if any, to distinguish a person with a B.Sc. Computer Engineering from say, a person who has an MCSE or CNE cert, since having a P.E. license is not necessary in this field?

I realize that no one is going to mistake a Civil Engineer with a P.E. license for someone who has an MCSE cert, but that doesn’t really help to differentiate between the job title Software Engineer and the degreed Computer Engineer.

Any ideas?

Easy, you just tell them you have a degree in computer engineering, everyone knows that a degree takes longer than a certification.

bdgr:

The people I’m talking about are the ones who say ‘Degree? For what? An MCSE is the same thing and it doesn’t take as long.’

What is the job your doing?

NinetyWt- Yes, the stats do interest me, especially in light of the Dept. of Labor’s use of the term to include 1,815,000 people. How many licensed PE’s are there in the US?

Shouldn’t the penalty phase wait until after the jury renders a verdict? :wink: Seriously, I don’t see how the penalties for violation are relevant to this particular discussion. Make it punishable by death, for all I care. (Though, if you really want my opinion, the penalty should be substantial. I am sure there are additional penalties which the law provides should actual injury result from misrepresentation, and this may be why the penalties sometimes seem light.)

My reading of the Kansas statute is that use of the term “engineer” is not by itself restricted. Going back to the OP, it seems this also the case in Alberta (the key phrase being “that represents expressly or by implication that he is a professional engineer”). I now count it as four known states and Alberta where one may refer to oneself as an engineer so long as it is not being used to dupe anyone into believing you are a PE. (Though the possibility does exist that in Canada, engineer is commonly used to mean PE and therefore implies such (much like doctor is used to mean MD), but I doubt it.)

First, I agree the analogy with doctor isn’t exact. Engineer has a wider range of meanings (in the dictionary sense) than doctor does. Which is exactly why it makes less sense for its usage to be more restricted than the use of “doctor”.

Do you really think that most people don’t know that there are doctors other than MD’s? I really doubt it (in fact, I doubt that you believe that). Their usage of doctor is a result of the fact that for most people, a Medical Doctor is the type of doctor they most commonly deal with. When the average person talks about a doctor, 99 times out of 100 (probably more!) they will be talking about an MD, so there isn’t a need to be more specific. I don’t think using the more familiar “doctor” to refer to MD’s prevents people from recognizing that these people are Medical Doctors, or that if they aren’t there are serious legal ramifications should they practice medicine. Nor does it keep them from recognizing and understanding that Dr. Whatsisname that teaches intro to Philosophy at the local community college (more than likely) is a PhD and not an MD. And I don’t think anyone is confused into thinking that the guy from Lawn Doctor who cuts their grass is either one.

Similarly, it is possible that there are some groups of people who deal mostly (or nearly exclusively) with PE’s. When they talk about engineers, most of the time they mean PE. So for them, the terms are used synonymously. This is reasonable, but I don’t think it is reasonable to expect other people, who rarely encounter PE’s, to use the term this way. Nor should it prevent either group from understanding that, like most words in English, there are multiple applications for the word, and meaning can be derived from context. Where context is insufficient, the less generic terms can be used.

Can it create confusion? Well, a lot of would-be comedians (e.g., disk jockeys) wouldn’t have much to say if it didn’t. But their material isn’t limited to this one word, and it doesn’t mean it always creates confusion.

Does this really happen (and how often)?? I mean, how stupid do you have to be to not know the difference between a 4 year degree and a 7 week certification, regardless of what name they go by? Doesn’t the fact that one is called a degree and the other a certificate tip them off at all?? Why would they say they are the same thing when nowhere in MCSE does the word “degree” appear? These are probably the same people who think AOL is the internet. I fear that no amount of clarification of terms or rewording is going to help with them. So long as they aren’t the people doing the hiring, why worry about it? (And if they are, you probably don’t want to work for them.)

There will always be stupid people. Unfortunately you can’t get rid of them by legislation.

For anyone who’s interested:

I posted a lame Pit rant on this subject here.

During one interview, it was. And no, I didn’t go to work for them.

The interviewer in question was the developer in charge of a quality assurance lab. He spent twenty minutes trying to figure out why I had gone to get a B.Sc. when I could’ve accomplished the same things with a bunch of manuals at home, and isn’t the only person I’ve had swear to me that there’s nothing involved in a B.Sc. Computer Engineering that’s not covered in MCSE and CNE cert.

I’ve solved the problem! "E"ngineer - professional designation: "e"ngineer - generic term.

So, you can be a P. E. (Although, I always see it listed as a P. Eng.)

Or you can be a MCSe

:slight_smile:

Umm, yeah, you don’t want to work for that guy. MCSE and CNE don’t cover any development more complicated than an autoexec.bat, if that. But you could call the degree a B. Sc. in Computer Programming and the cert. Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator, and there would still be people who were stupid and confused enough not to see the difference. Language may be powerful, but it seems stupidity is stronger.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by tourbot *
**MCSE and CNE don’t cover any development more complicated than an autoexec.bat, if that. QUOTE]
That is absolutely not true at all. Some of the stuff on permissions, networking security and policys gets pretty damn complicated.