I recently decided to buy a guitar. I played a little as a teenager (“played” may be an overstatement - I knew 8 chords and strummed – my brother, now he PLAYS), and decided it would be fun to pick it up again. My interest lead me to Music123.com, which has many, many guitars for sale. I was immediately struck by the fact that you could buy a new acoustic guitar for $18,000.00 (for a Martin OM45GE0), as well as the fact that there was a whole page worth of guitars with prices from $4,000 to $9,000.
On to the GQs:
What makes these hyper-expensive guitars worth so much money? Do they sound that much different/better than a $600 guitar?
What’s a generally accepted “fair-value” price point – that is, “OK, if I had $2,000, that’d be worth it, but $9,000, no way, never, unless my only other choice was to use the money for kindling”?
H… , oh never mind.
Thanks for the input.
(By the way, my budget makes this a pureley theroetical question, which is a good kind for this board, I think.)
I have friends who play guitar professionally and for leisure and they have talked about wishing they could afford a Martin. Martin has been making guitars for a long time and are well known for their quality stuff. The $18,000 job is probably a VERY limited edition and is most likely hand made and you’d probably have to special order it. As for “fair value”, you have to decide how important the guitar will be to you.
When you get past a certain $ amount - say $2- 3,000, you’re talking about add-ons that don’t contribute to the play-ability, such as whether the guitar is a limited edition (like the Eric Clapton Martin, or any number of limited Strats and other electrics) or rare materials and workmanship (inlays, carving, etc…).
As far as the different ranges of price leading up to that, there can be tons of variation. I have a Taylor acoustic, and it rocks! Amazing, fast neck, great woods and craftsmanship - plays like a dream.
If you took two guitars made this year, the price difference would be in materials, hand-crafting details, and limited availability. A big jump occurs when the top, back, and sides are made from solid woods rather than laminates. Certain manufacturers have ways of shaping the neck that may require more handwork. Beyond that are the details. If you want something on the fretboard besides the usual dots, that’s more. If you want your fretboard bound, that’s more. If you want the logo done in abalone, that’s more. Does all that detailing affect the sound? Not that I’m aware of, but it makes the guitar more unique.
The ‘collectability’ of a guitar jacks up the price as well. I’ve played (briefly) guitars with $15,000 + price tags based on their rarity or historical value. They didn’t seem to sound or play any better than guitars at a quarter of the price, but that’s not really the point at that level.
As far as fair value is concerned, that’s up to you. At this point, you may think it’s crazy to spend $1000 on a guitar. Five years from now, you may think $1000 is just getting started.
According to a guitar salesman I’ve talked to, at the Taylor guitar factory there is a guitar hanging in the shop that sound rather decent and is quite playable. It is made from one of the shipping pallets that freight arrived on. It shows that construction is half the battle in making a good guitar.
A passable guitar can be sold for under one thousand dollars. If you want something that will hold its value for more than five milleseconds after leaving the showroom floor you will need to spend at least a grand. What you get for that grand can vary wildly. If you want the latest and greatest paint finish or active electronics the minute it is introduced you will be bled white for your novelty fetish. If you are looking for solid construction and functionallity in a more conventional design you can begin to have some sort of investment value.
You might wish to consider buying an older used guitar. The prime virtue of an older guitar is that it is still in one piece. Literally, if the guitar has been able to age for a decent period of time then you can be assured that it will remain dimesionally stable for the rest of its life. A rosetta or inlay is not going to spontaneously eject itself. The neck will not warp from low quality wood. The wood will have fully cured giving the instrument a much more mellow voice. This is one reason that older “vintage” guitars in prime condition command such extremely high prices. They are fully seasoned and reduced to their final tolerances from drying, shrinkage and curing of the members and finish.
Machinery is another subset that warrants some attention. Low quality tuning heads can allow strings to slip more often making the instrument hard to tune and difficult to keep in tune. We’ll ignore the incredibly embarassing loss of tuning in the middle of a performance that I have seen happen to some artists with low quality guitars. Look carefully at the finish on the strap pegs and tuning machines. Are there inclusions in the plating? Is the action of the tuning heads smooth? Look at the fretwork. Are the frets correctly set? A high fret can disable a few subsequent notes above it on the neck. The overall action and set-up of the guitar and how high the strings must be above the neck can make or break a guitar. A high action can impede your ability to correctly bar chords and run scales quickly. A guitar that is not fun to play will not get played.
One of things that you pay for with the top end guitars is the hardwoods used in their construction. The preferred woods like rosewood, Sitka spruce, maple and mahogany are popular for a reason. Their resonant and structural properties are well known and lend themselves to the production of sound. The more expensive the guitar the most stabilized (kiln dried) the wood is going to be. Long aging times for the woods helps assure consistency and stability of tone. Blemishes and grain irregularities are reserved for the bottom end instruments and top-of-the-line guitars will feature only the finest book matched back panels and sounding boards. Solid body electric guitars electric guitars are another matter altogether and will be reserved for another discussion. The final item in the guitar’s construction can also command great additional price. This is the paint job.
A well built guitar can almost be ruined by a bad paint job. Slubs in the paint or a over thinned laquer that cracks quickly can downgrade the appearance and tone of an instrument. For a paint to be stable and able to age it must be applied in multiple coats. Getting a foot deep finish is the result of numerous intermediary sandings of the base coats. I know this because I helped work the fininsh of my custom built guitar. (I secured the paint shack for the luthier so that I could get a nitrocellulose vintage style finish put down on it.) Having the painter lay down a sunburst finish or other forms of artistic magic is time consuming. The final product can be a breathtaking mix of form, function and art all at once. If you have not taken the time to peruse a selection of high quality guitars at a specialty store, do so. It is one of the best educations you can get about why guitars vary so much in price.
the Martin D-50 Delux (scroll for it) lists for $50,000. Only 50 will be made. On the other end, Martin has some excellent guitars for under $1000. I have highly recommend the DX-1. It plays and sounds like a $3000 Takamine (except for the F# thud that all Martins have).
To follow Zenster display drives the price of a guitar up (along with brand name). The more inlay, the higher the price, especially if the inlay is not standard. Many guitar manufacturers (note I did not use “lothier”) buy pre-cut inlay in pearl or abalone (high-end) or plastic (low-end). Paul Reed Smith, for example cuts their own inlays. They stack about 15 sheets of material and cut them all at the same time. Dots are cheaper than other shapes for fingerboard inlays.
Lothiars can buy pre-cut inlay pieces or cut their own. On the guitar I had custom made, the fingerboard inlays are pre-cut and the headstock logo was made by the lothiar. I made the inlay for the center headstock out of black pearl. Given the amount of time required, the difficulty working with inlay material and the work involved, it’s no wonder that inlay drives up the price. I spent over 10 hours on the inlay. Granted it was my first and only time, but to amoritize the work into an hourly rate, the price would have gone way up.
As Zenster suggested, there are two reasons for buying a guitar. One is that you want to play, in which case sound and playability are important. The other reason would be as an investment. In this case, sound and playability may not be as important as you think - especially with vintage guitars. The Martin Jumbo guitars of the late 30’s IMO sound like crap, but, since every great country musician had one, they are collectible. The same holds true with National Resophonic guitars from the late 20’s and early 30’s. Not a great sound, but have value for what they represent. It’s kind of like investing in wine. Sure the bottle of “Humphelscrub 1873” is now a bottle of vinegar, but this wine won 4,268 gold medals in wine tastings all over the world that year. You are buying what it represents, not what it truly is.
Not to dissuade you from older, classic guitars (as stated above, most guitars of value are so because of their sound), but to point out reasons for buying a specific guitar.
Just one brief thing…if you should decide on a higher end acoustic older than say twenty years, be prepared to have the neck re-set. It’s not always an absolute necessity, but a very common need in older guitars and can run you four or five hundred dollars. Just another thing to consider.
What limits you is what you should examine, when you decide which instrument to purchase. Assuming you are buying to play, and your play abilities are modest, a modest investment in a guitar is a reasonable decision. The advice above seems sound, with regard to new versus used, and general quality parameters. When your play reaches the point that it is the quality of the instrument that is limiting your performance, then you need to see about making a more substantial investment in another guitar. If you bought a decent used instrument when you started, and took care of it, most of that value will still be there for you to recover.
When your performance has reached a level that supports your desire for affectations of style, you should then consider the realm of custom made or historic antique instruments. These are certainly not appropriate to learning to play. If your musicianship is of a level that even a high quality ordinary instrument represents a limit in a musical sense, then you should consider the possibility of approaching an institutional owner for the experience of playing truly legendary instruments. Perhaps they will concur in your assessment.
Tris
“Criticism comes easier than craftsmanship.” ~ Zeuxis ~ (400 BC)
I have an Alvarez acoustic purchased brand-spankin’-ass new back in about 1987 for not more than $500. I’ve played the hell out of it for fourteen years now, and I’m still as avid a player as I ever was. Many times I’ve thought about stepping up and spending two or three grand on a fine instrument, since I could probably come up with it.
However, my playing style is rather harsh and percussive, and a lot of my playing is done at drunken parties when I’ve had a beer or six myself. If I had an expensive guitar, I’d have to worry about it. Then I looked to Amy Ray (of the Indigo Girls) and Ani Difranco to see what they play, since they both beat the hell out of their instruments, and they both proudly play Alvarez.
So I can attest to both the quality and the durability of an Alvarez acoustic. I may still get a new guitar someday, but I could never get rid of Stephanie (that’s her name). (There’s a picture of me wielding my beloved axe right here, bottom right.)
As for those expensive guitars–yes, they are nicer, but you as a beginner could probably not appreciate much difference. After many years of playing, I can tell a difference in quality between my $500 Alvarez, my friend’s $1500 Taylor, and the $5000 Martin in the shop. Is it worth the difference? Not to me.
[hijack?] I want a Rickenbacker 12 string (because George played one). Found a 360/12 on eBay that was couple of years old (less than 7?, BTW it’s gone now).
The final bid was around $1000 (I think), but they retail for close to $3000.
Is this a reasonable depreciation for this guitar? (I.e., I’d expect a new car to depreciate like this, but not a fine instrument.) Is the $1000 figure an anomaly (maybe someone needed cash quick)? Consider that on eBay, the bidders most likely hadn’t played the instrument before making their bid, thus probably aren’t a reliable judge of it’s condition (I assume condition affects price in this scenario). My real question: is $1000 a good deal, or too good to be true?
Since we clearly have some guitar gurus here, can anyone recommend a “starter” to “mid-level”, yet good quality, electric 12 string? (I’m a musician (piano, Irish flute, & low brass horns) but just hack around on rhythm guitar (I currently play an old Epiphone 6 string).) I’m willing to pay what it’s worth (or $2000, whichever is lower), but don’t want some crap no-name. Any suggestions?
Nothing to add, except advise my guitar teacher once gave me:
“Buy the best guitar you can afford.”
Test drive them all, and buy the one that feels the best to you and is near the top of your price range. A guitar (or any instrument for that matter) is not something you try to save money on by getting the “house brand” or a less expensive knock-off.
A Rickenbacker 360/12 new costs around $1500 - I know because I have one.
A lot of pro musicians do not use expensive guitars - they use basic electric Fenders that cost $700 or an acoustic that costs $600. This includes guys in groups like U2, Pearl Jam , etc. You really don’t need a high price to get a good sound. A lot of the high priced stuff is just ego if you ask me. Some folks really are into old guitars from the 50’s and even before that and those are not cheap. The older wood is supposed to sound better as it ages.
This reminds me once of what someone said about photographers - pros talk about their pictures, while amateurs talk about how expensive their camera is!
