(gulp) Can I ask for some factual clarification about France?

[alice_in_wonderland]

Can someone clairify something for me, without freeking out, SVP.

So - the French vito thing - My understanding is that France has said they will vito any resolution that involves stuff getting blown up, so to speak.

Is this correct, or am I missing something?

Thanks.

[toadspittle]

That’s correct, AFAIK.

[toadspittle]

More:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L19327170

French President Jacques Chirac shocked Britain last week by vowing to veto any war resolution “whatever the circumstances”.

Still trying to find a primary source (where the French say, “We will veto any resolution that leads to war …” etc.). The story is just old enough now that everyone is taking it as a given, and it’s Britain and the US that are mentioning the veto more than the French themselves, now.

[alice_in_wonderland]

So. Is this because the French are enphatically against war/violence in this situation (or in general)?

Or is it because they’re trying to piss people off?

My first inclination is a), but some information I’ve read has led me to believe that many feel it’s actually b).

[toadspittle]

This covers Chirac’s position pretty well (excerpts from “60 Minutes” interview):

http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/world/story/810476p-5759041c.html

“I want to say that France and I have always been friends of the United States,” Chirac said in a rare American television interview. But “we will naturally go to the end with our refusal” to endorse military action, he said.

Unless U.N. weapons inspectors reported that they no longer could do their job due to Iraqi interference, France would not support a second U.N. resolution clearing the way for war, he said.

But Chirac did say he was willing to accept a 30-day deadline for Saddam to disarm, provided the deadline was sanctioned by the inspectors - backing away from a 120-day period outlined in a France-Germany-Russia memorandum submitted to the Security Council.

…

France has staunchly opposed any deadline for Iraq that would include an automatic trigger for war, and last week it helped stymie a U.S.-led resolution for such an ultimatum. Its stance is supported by Germany, Russia and China.

[friedo]

Jacques Chirac has a habit of pissing people off, but mainly it is because France is morally opposed to the war. However, they have recently stated that they would support war if Iraq used chemical weapons against the US or UK forces that are already there. Some have speculated that Chirac’s absolutism regarding the war is related to the fact that the French government (or was it French oil companies? I forget) has very lucrative oil contracts with the Iraqi regime.

[toadspittle]

So. Is this because the French are enphatically against war/violence in this situation (or in general)?

Or is it because they’re trying to piss people off?

My first inclination is a), but some information I’ve read has led me to believe that many feel it’s actually b).

Those questions aren’t really GQ material. You should try GD.

[Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker]

Here’s a little more info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/crisis_in_the_gulf/decision_makers_and_diplomacy/58568.stm

Basically, Chirac has had a very long personal relationship with Saddam, and is probably against seeing an old buddy come to harm.

[Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker]

The French also did not allow use of their air space when the US bombed Libya back in the 80s, so it’s not unusual for them to be against US military action. I’m just surprised that they supported the First Gulf War.

[alice_in_wonderland]

So and I’m really trying to tread lightly here, why is everyone (the US) so cheesed off?

If France has traditionally been anti-war, and traditionally been pally with Iraq, why are people so bent out of shape this time?

Did Chirac say really rude things when announcing his intent to vito, or do people feel that in this situation he should make an exception, or do they just not like Chirac.

I really don’t want a debate of any sort or an arguement for that matter. I’m just curious as what the justification (given) is for being THIS cranky with France. As opposed to the usual level of crankyness.

[joemama24_98]

*Originally posted by Earl Snake-Hips Tucker *
**Here’s a little more info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/crisis_in_the_gulf/decision_makers_and_diplomacy/58568.stm

Basically, Chirac has had a very long personal relationship with Saddam, and is probably against seeing an old buddy come to harm. **

That article oversimplifies quite a few points. I don’t know the status of Chirac’s relationship with Saddam, but the record should also reflect that:

a) The US also supported Iraq in the Iran - Iraq war

b) Many US companies, with the tacit consent of the government, provided weapons of all types (including chemical and bio stocks) to Iraq under the Hussein regime.
I believe the French government is in compliance with the embargo against Iraq. It has been some time since they’ve had dealing w/ Hussein.

[Misery_Loves_Co]

This was already brought up in Great Debates,

Here

clairobscur in particular shows the “whatever the circumstances” phrase to be taken out of context, and the real gist to this: that France opposes, and will continue to oppose aggression until such time as the inspectors find a smoking gun.

France is not being obstinately pacifist, nor are they trying deliberately to piss America off. Chirac just doesn’t believe that non-violent means have been exhausted. It’s really not that unreasonable, but the cut-down quote makes for some fantastic conclusion-jumping.

[Early_Out]

(BTW, alice, “vito” is a Corleone; “veto” is a “no” vote.)

[alice_in_wonderland]

Right. Veto. Cheers. Nobody ever said I could spell.

So it’s misquoting that’s the source of everyone’s ire - is that about right?

[Tuckerfan]

*Originally posted by Earl Snake-Hips Tucker *
**The French also did not allow use of their air space when the US bombed Libya back in the 80s, so it’s not unusual for them to be against US military action. I’m just surprised that they supported the First Gulf War. **

However, this time France has said that the US can use their air space if needed.

As for why everyone’s cheesed off at the French, well, the French have a reputation for being snobby, so this just gives everyone the opportunity to stab back at them.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Honestly, I was just curious about the “boycot” of French products.

I wasn’t sure if France or Chirac had done something above and beyond the veto stuff.

Cheers.

[raygirvan]

Basically, Chirac has had a very long personal relationship with Saddam, and is probably against seeing an old buddy come to harm.

joemama24_98 seconded. And also some context: this is a fairly empty criticism anyway, since France is not the only Western country whose leaders have reportedly considered dictators of unpleasant regimes as “personal friends” (compare Thatcher/Pinochet and Bush#1/Noriega).

[Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker]

*Originally posted by Tuckerfan *
**However, this time France has said that the US can use their air space if need. **

Hey, now, of all people, I would have thought you would support me.

*Originally posted by raygirvan *
**Basically, Chirac has had a very long personal relationship with Saddam, and is probably against seeing an old buddy come to harm.

joemama24_98 seconded. And also some context: this is a fairly empty criticism anyway, since France is not the only Western country whose leaders have reportedly considered dictators of unpleasant regimes as “personal friends” (compare Thatcher/Pinochet and Bush#1/Noriega). **

Roosevelt#2/Stalin

[Dogface]

*Originally posted by alice_in_wonderland *
So. Is this because the French are enphatically against war/violence in this situation (or in general)?

Any good look at the history of France after WWII shows that the country not in the least bit against war/violence. What they do have a habit of doing is opposing the USA as a matter of apparent reflex. Sometimes, I think that if a US president came out in favor of French independence, France would ask to be annexed to the Belgium.