Gun control post mortem debate

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@ElvisL1ves

Because of the sheer numbers. Hardly anyone would deny that there are occasional anecdotes such as the single one you just linked. The problem is that there are far more the other, tragic, preventable direction.

cite?

@ElvisL1ves

So why then is one side, yours, actively *opposing *measures that might have a chance to address that problem in some way, combined with deriding the naivete of those working for it, including words like “hysterical” and “nonsensical” (scroll up 3 posts) while offering exactly *jack *as an alternative constructive approach?

What inferences can therefore be reasonably drawn about their, i.e. your, underlying atttitudes? Don’t kid yourself. You’re not fooling anybody else. You want the “right” to act irresponsibly without being questioned or held accountable for it.

So have you not heard my ideas about licensing and registration yet?

@Bone

When you actually believe it’s a reasonable inference that the person you’re talking to is indifferent towards dead children, I question your grasp of reality.

This is how they justify stripping constitutional rights. They make their opponents into monsters.

@ElvisL1ves

Who’s talking only about Newtown? :dubious: The problem is far larger than that. Yes, I realize that brings you off the perch and into terrain you find uncomfortable, but deal with it.

Ermm, several posts have indicated that they were talking about newtown.

So tell me again how many people get killed by assault weapons? How many suicides (not that suicides count). How many murders?

The problem, since you prefer to be obtuse about it, is the number of needless deaths that result from tthe fact that it’s deployed everyday all over the country. We’re discussing AW’s, however you wish to define the term, incidentally, not whatever the hell was used in Newtown. If you have a way to justify that fact with reason rather than with invective, you might start. As it is, you’re digging a hole.

So in what way would those children be any less dead if shot by a rifle without a collapsible stock and pistol grip?

@YogSosoth

Banning assault weapons would have directly contributed to preventing Newtown. Databases for mental illness likely would have prevented Virginia Tech. You are wrong

So in what way would those children be any less dead if shot by a rifle without a collapsible stock and pistol grip? Or even a glock 17?

The NRA endorses addressing mental illnes IIRC.

or if the mother didn’t have a gun in the first place

So are you proposing repealing the second amendment? Because people on your side always claim that that is not the goal.

Its pretty fucking idiotic because that’s not reality. …Its REALITY that when people have guns, they are more likely to shoot themselves or someone close to them. That’s not in dispute.

cite that this happens more frequently than people preventing criminals from doing bad things. Considering that most gun homocides are committed by people who are not allowed to have guns (mostly felons and domestic abusers), you are trying to prevent a relatively small number of murders by caused previously law abiding citizens and allowing more deaths caused by criminals and domestic abusers.

@YogSosoth

Gun control in general would have prevented it, including the AWB

So in what way would those children be any less dead if shot by a rifle without a collapsible stock and pistol grip?

@PhillyGuy

Approximately 50 people shoot themselves to death, in the US, each day.

We cannot stop suicides short of banning and confiscation of all firearms. Is that what you are proposing or are you under the impression that people commit suicide with assault weapons.

[quote]
How many documented instances can you find of defensive gun use in one day? Pick yesterday. Or pick any day you want. …50.

Suicides don’t count unless your saying that you plan on banning and confiscating all guns.

Also, consider that everyone who tells Gallup they pulled a gun on someone else, except in a few tragic cases of mistaken identity, has a story in their mind about how they were in the right. They doesn’t mean they were.

If 685 times a day there was a right to keep and bear arms success story, gun-owners would be be safer than the rest of us. When, actually, they are in more danger.

“We don’t have an answer as to whether guns are protective or perilous,” Branas says. “This study is a beginning.”

I don’t know what the answer is but I think a good indicator of whether or not guns protect people would be if we had some statistics on the rate that CCWs are victims of gun homocides versus the general population. Probably a lot of confounding factors but it would be a data point.

Does this mean we should pass any particular proposed law? Not particularly. It does mean that we should advise people against arming themselves.

No it doesn’t

@ElvisL1ves

I don’t know how many times we are going to have to repeat that we are talking about the entire problem of gun murders, NOT just Sandy Hook, before you grasp the concept (but we’re apparently not there yet). :rolleyes:

How many gun murders do you think are committed by assault weapons?

ChickenLegs, perhaps you could ask **Damuri **for the stats on gun deaths of children. I know he has them right at hand.

I only have statistics on accidental gun deaths. Do you want to include teenagers or not?

[HurricaneDitka]

@YogSosoth

Gun control in general would have prevented it, including the AWB

No, it wouldn’t have. Connecticut had an AWB. Didn’t stop it. Lanza could’ve used a .22 pistol with 10-round magazines, and still could’ve killed children until he got bored with it, just like the Virginia Tech shooter.

[Grumman]

@Damuri_Ajashi

We cannot stop suicides short of banning and confiscation of all firearms.

And rope. And cars. And bridges. And trains.

[HurricaneDitka]

@ElvisL1ves

Now, can you agree that your side is *opposing *measures that would reduce gun deaths, including those of children?

No. I believe that gun ownership by responsible adults deters crimes, including murder, and gives those responsible adults the ability to defend themselves and their family in exigent circumstances. I see legal gun ownership as a net positive.

The narrow-minded focus on “gun deaths” (as if those types of deaths are worse than crowbar deaths or knife deaths) is almost as silly as the left’s obsession with “assault weapons”.

I hate seeing people killed. I find the murder of young children particularly sad and tragic, but your side didn’t come up with a solution to the problem. They just brought back the same warmed-over proposals that they’ve been making for 20 years.

[Bone]

@YogSosoth

Banning assault weapons would have directly contributed to preventing Newtown. Databases for mental illness likely would have prevented Virginia Tech. You are wrong

And you know this how? Your position is that if assault weapons were banned, then Lanza would not have killed his mother, stole her other guns, and killed a bunch of kindergarten students and teachers? That somehow, bent on his crazy murderous intentions, he would have thought, damn, I don’t have a pistol grip, I’ve been foiled! I think it’s generous to say that seems unrealistic.

Or of the teacher stabbed him in the kidney, or roundhouse kicked him in the groin, or the security doors worked, or if the mother didn’t have a gun in the first place, or if there was a convenient hole that Lanza could have fallen in to. That’s the funny thing about cherries, anyone can pick them. Mmmmm, cherries…

Exactly, a number of things could have happened, as I acknowledged. What did happen was no one was able to defend themselves and a massacre happened, pretty much the worst possible outcome. I notice in your fanciful scenarios you didn’t mention if the gun he used was banned. Oversight?

Its pretty fucking idiotic because that’s not reality.

This is exactly my point. The supposition that vast groups of people are indifferent towards dead children is fucking idiotic. Believing this of people who disagree with you is fucking idiotic.

Proposing that teachers arm themselves will lead to more school shootings, not let. So yeah, its pretty fucking idiotic. Your position of arming teachers doesn’t give a damn about dead kids, all you care about is the poor downtrodden gun owners

Cite that arming teachers will lead to more school shootings?

From Campus Carry:

At the start of the 2010 fall semester, 14 Colorado community colleges (38 campuses) began allowing licensed concealed carry on campus. Since the fall semester of 2006, Utah state law has allowed licensed individuals to carry concealed handguns on the campuses of Utah’s nine degree-offering public colleges (20 campuses) and one public technical college (10 campuses). Concealed carry has been allowed on the two campuses of Colorado State University (Fort Collins, CO, and Pueblo, CO) since 2003 and at Blue Ridge Community College (Weyers Cave, VA) since 1995. After allowing concealed carry on campus for an average of more than three years (as of June 2011), none of these 26 colleges (71 campuses) has seen a single resulting incident of gun violence (including threats and suicides) or a single resulting gun accident.

This is at colleges, so not a perfect example, but given your assertion that more guns on campus would lead to more shootings, I’d say so far, the facts are not on your side. Every time a state went shall issue, gun control advocates claimed it would lead to more gun violence. This has been proven false in every state that it has happened.

[ChickenLegs]

Another thing that annoys the hell out of me from the anti-gunners: the way the treat the gun issue from the collectivist viewpoint. As if somehow they were right (and they’re not, of course), and that if banning all guns would stop 51 innocents from being murdered for every 49 murders of innocents it prevented, well then, that would be justification to ban all guns, and the 49 be damned. You can just die and just up about it.

There’s a reason this is a constitutional individual right.

I, as an individual, am not less safe because I own a gun. If you think I am, you’re some kind of ignorant moron. So because some depressed guy commits suicide with a gun, an inbred moron leaves a loaded gun where his kid can find it, and a mugger in some stinking city cesspool shoots and robs a victim, I must give up my means of self defense? Is this really the way you people think?

[ElvisL1ves]

@Bone

This thread is talking about the post mortem of gun control in the wake of Newtown. Elivis, you are the only one that is talking about the entire problem of gun murders. I know you have trouble keeping track of what threads are about, but this is right there in the OP.

I realize that the only way you, and others like you, can deal with the dissonance between what you stand for and what consequences it has is by trying desperately to dismiss the latest of many such events as an isolated anomaly. Problem is, it ain’t. And you do have to come to grips with that dissonance, somehow, some way. Invective-spewing won’t do it.

[ElvisL1ves]

@Damuri_Ajashi

cite?

Been there before, don’t be cute.

So have you not heard my ideas about licensing and registration yet?

More fantasies, that also wouldn’t have stopped Newtown, since you were about to bring that up. Lanza, like so many other mass and single murderers before him, had been a “law-abiding citizen” right up until the moment he wasn’t. Unless you can find a real, practical way to alter human nature, your responsibility to the society you live in requires you to find another real, practical way. Deal with it.

This is how they justify stripping constitutional rights. They make their opponents into monsters.

The invective in this thread, including words such as “hysterical”, comes from your side, including your own damn self. The fact that you have to resort to that merely illustrates the barrenness of your position.

So in what way would those children be any less dead if shot by a rifle without a collapsible stock and pistol grip?

See above. You’re smart enough to get the point, however inconvenient you may find it.

The NRA endorses addressing mental illnes IIRC.

Great. So what do they propose to do about it? What do you propose? And what constitutional rights are you willing to violate to implement it? No more ducking, time to take responsibility here.

So are you proposing repealing the second amendment? Because people on your side always claim that that is not the goal.

“Always”? :dubious: This from somebody upset about being caricatured? There are many, many possible approaches to reducing the murder rate problem. It happens I do favor rbilepeal of the 2nd, due to its ability to be misread as requiring more than the existence and armament of the National Guard. You will note, I hope, that virtually no other country calling itself civilized has anything like it, and they are not jackbooted tyrannies either.

So in what way would those children be any less dead if shot by a rifle without a collapsible stock and pistol grip?

For fuck’s sake. :rolleyes: You do realize, I hope, that you’re merely illustrating my point that your side opposes doing anything to help prevent mass murders of innocents.

We cannot stop suicides short of banning and confiscation of all firearms. Is that what you are proposing or are you under the impression that people commit suicide with assault weapons.

More of your typical strawmanning. You seem fond of the argument that if you can’t do everything, you should do nothing. I’ve made it clear enough to anyone with good faith that *reducing *needless, tragic deaths is my goal. You insist on mischaracterizing that, for reasons that perhaps you might explain to us.

[ElvisL1ves]

@HurricaneDitka

No. I believe that gun ownership by responsible adults deters crimes, including murder, and gives those responsible adults the ability to defend themselves and their family in exigent circumstances. I see legal gun ownership as a net positive.

Unfortunately the data is against your belief.

The narrow-minded focus on “gun deaths” (as if those types of deaths are worse than crowbar deaths or knife deaths) is almost as silly as the left’s obsession with “assault weapons”.

So what is *your *proposal? :dubious:

I hate seeing people killed. I find the murder of young children particularly sad and tragic

Then what do you propose to do about it?

but your side didn’t come up with a solution to the problem. They just brought back the same warmed-over proposals that they’ve been making for 20 years.

The fact that you people have successfully thwarted those efforts does not reflect on their merits, especially given the absence of offering constructive alternatives. Don’t kid yourself.

[ElvisL1ves]

@ChickenLegs

Another thing that annoys the hell out of me from the anti-gunners: the way the treat the gun issue from the collectivist viewpoint.

Are you part of a society or are you an isolated individual?

I, as an individual

Oh.

am not less safe because I own a gun

Wrong. You are less safe to others, and you’re even less safe to yourself.

If you think I am, you’re some kind of ignorant moron.

So much for your willingness to seriously address the problem. :rolleyes:

So because some depressed guy commits suicide with a gun, an inbred moron leaves a loaded gun where his kid can find it, and a mugger in some stinking city cesspool shoots and robs a victim

Yeah, that kinda shit only happens to other people, not to you. You’re different, you’re special, right? Come on now.

[ChickenLegs]

@ElvisL1ves

Are you part of a society or are you an isolated individual?
Oh.
Wrong. You are less safe to others, and you’re even less safe to yourself. So much for your willingness to seriously address the problem. :rolleyes:

Yeah, that kinda shit only happens to other people, not to you. You’re different, you’re special, right? Come on now.

I this is at the core of it, i think. Anti-gun people don’t trust themselves, it seems, maybe rightfully so. They think they may get depressed and shoot themselves if they had a gun around. They think they lack the adult-level competence to avoid accidently shooting themselves or others. They think perhaps they ARE foolish enough to leave a loaded gun where children can find it. They think that maybe, in a fit of rage, they may shoot someone.

They project their own lack of control, mental weakness, and incompetence on others, which leads to the conclusion that a level-headed, competent adult like myself is in dire danger simply for owning a gun.

[Czarcasm]

@ChickenLegs

I this is at the core of it, i think. Anti-gun people don’t trust themselves, it seems, maybe rightfully so. They think they may get depressed and shoot themselves if they had a gun around. They think they lack the adult-level competence to avoid accidently shooting themselves or others. They think perhaps they ARE foolish enough to leave a loaded gun where children can find it. They think that maybe, in a fit of rage, they may shoot someone.

They project their own lack of control, mental weakness, and incompetence on others, which leads to the conclusion that a level-headed, competent adult like myself is in dire danger simply for owning a gun.

Or maybe they seen reports of pro-gun people shooting themselves, lacking the adult-level competence to avoid accidentally shooting themselves or others. Maybe they know of pro-gun people that were foolish enough to leave to leave a loaded gun where children can find it. Maybe they know of pro-gun people that shot someone in a fit of rage.
Maybe their fears have a factual basis.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Czarcasm

Or maybe they seen reports of pro-gun people shooting themselves, lacking the adult-level competence to avoid accidentally shooting themselves or others. Maybe they know of pro-gun people that were foolish enough to leave to leave a loaded gun where children can find it. Maybe they know of pro-gun people that shot someone in a fit of rage.
Maybe their fears have a factual basis.

Exactly. That insult posing as a line of argument is something that Kable was trying to run before, but as you note, it makes no sense. All of the boneheads shooting themselves in airports or shooting 9 year olds through the wall while practicing their quickdraw or having their five year old shoot their two year old or shooting their kid while putting him in his carseat or becoming despondent and killing their family and or themselves ARE GUN OWNERS.

[ChickenLegs]

@Czarcasm

Or maybe they seen reports of pro-gun people shooting themselves, lacking the adult-level competence to avoid accidentally shooting themselves or others. Maybe they know of pro-gun people that were foolish enough to leave to leave a loaded gun where children can find it. Maybe they know of pro-gun people that shot someone in a fit of rage.
Maybe their fears have a factual basis.

I’ll wager I know a heck of a lot more actual competent gun owners than you. I can probably name hundreds. I don’t know a single one that shot someone in a fit of rage. I don’t know a single one whose gun harmed a child.

I’ve been shooting hundreds of times at formal and informal ranges, hunted hours upon hours solo and in groups, carried a gun on my person for self-defense, and travelled with many others who do the same. Hell, even my barber wears a gun. There’s a even gun in my pocket while I type this (Egads! The horror! Let me run off and cower now!).

What kind of incompetent buffoons do you guys associate with that they’re killing kids and shooting each other in fits of rage? Maybe you should get new friends.

[Czarcasm]

@ChickenLegs

I’ll wager I know a heck of a lot more actual competent gun owners than you. I can probably name hundreds. I don’t know a single one that shot someone in a fit of rage. I don’t know a single one whose gun harmed a child.

I’ve been shooting hundreds of times at formal and informal ranges, hunted hours upon hours solo and in groups, carried a gun on my person for self-defense, and travelled with many others who do the same. Hell, even my barber wears a gun. There’s a even gun in my pocket while I type this (Egads! The horror! Let me run off and cower now!).

What kind of incompetent buffoons do you guys associate with that they’re killing kids and shooting each other in fits of rage? Maybe you should get new friends.

You’ve convinced me-those type of things never happen, and if they do happen, they never happen to gun owners.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

I associate with non-gun owners. Absolutely none of them have shot anyone at all.

[ChickenLegs]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

I associate with non-gun owners. Absolutely none of them have shot anyone at all.

And never will, even if they or their families are the victims of violent crime. Those that can, do. Those that can’t cower in the corner and let others defend them.

[Human_Action]

So, for the record, this thread is now just general gun-control debate?

[ChickenLegs]

@Czarcasm

You’ve convinced me-those type of things never happen, and if they do happen, they never happen to gun owners.

You keep saying that. I don’t say that. What I say is that competent adult not-afraid-of-his-own-shadow-type gun owners like me don’t shoot kids or others in a fit of rage. There are hundreds upon thousands of adults like me. We make ourselves, our families, and society as a whole safer through the deterrent effect of guns. Guys like you are just along for the ride, reaping the benefit without doing the work. That’s OK, I understand some are weaker than others. But please stop trying to emasculate your bettors by bringing them down to your level.

You know, I’m reminded of an article I read right after the Sand Hook tragedy. A school superindenant in Ohio was arguing against a proposal to let teachers carry guns. He said something like “You know, if it was me, I don’t know if I could pull that trigger.”

Here’s an elected offical, saying if children were being murdered, he doesn’t know if he’d be able to shoot the assailant. In my youth, we had a name for this: cowardice. Nowadays, I guess, we’re supposed to give equal weight to the opinions of cowards. And just let the children die, I guess, and pass a law later.

[ElvisL1ves]

Yes, yes, you’re different, you’re special, nothing like that stuff could ever happen to you. No, you’re an advanced lifeform, unlike all those *other *gun owners who are responsible for all the bad stuff, yessirree.

Of course, pretty much all of *them *thought that way, too.