Like Somalia?
- Honesty
I am really sorry I caused this derailment (the first couple of answers were sufficient for me to begin to see where the POV comes from) but I have learned a lot!
Myself, while I recognize that there are serious problems in the health system that we have, I am content paying taxes in return for the guarantee (such as it is) that I can see a doctor, receive treatment, and obtain medicine without going bankrupt (same goes for education, infrastructure, etc). Of course, we do have private insurance to cover the costs of whatever the government won’t pay for, but still… I shudder to think at where my family would be if we had had to pay the 25000+$/year for my sister’s medicines (for a manageable, non-life-threatening but chronic disease).
I sometimes wonder if the people most vehemently against UHC are healthy people, from healthy families? Either that, or well-off enough to pay for private insurance, at least.
As I said, I’m not a great debater, so I won’t really do that, but I have never really taken the time to think about this from the other side, and this has prompted me to do so. I’ll certainly keep reading this thread, I’m learning a lot!
Crafter_Man lays out his views pretty clearly and demands little to no taxes and little to no government “intervention” in his life.
But I’m not 100% clear on what everyone else who’s against UHC means by not wanting their taxes to subsidise others’ lives. Is it because a tax hike is anticipated? If not, is it the thoughts of paying for something that will never benefit them directly? Isn’t that the same for most taxes, all the roads you’ll never drive on, the fires that burn someone else’s house down? 
Of course it is; it’s the cost of living in a coherent society instead of in chaos. I don’t have children in school, but I pay my school taxes so we (hopefully) don’t end up with a nation full of slack-jawed morons. I would venture to say there has never been an administration, left or right, that has actually reduced spending, Clinton’s budget surplus notwithstanding. The current administration’s spending has far outstripped anything that has gone before and governent is far larger than ever before. But how, you may ask, is this possible without tax hikes? Simple: increase the debt load and mortgage our childrens’ futures.
I’ve never understood how ‘borrow and spend’ is a better method than ‘tax and spend’. As the government is less and less able to administrate because of personnel cuts and deregulation, when our lenders eventually call their loans, corporate America will eventually take over all functions. Does anyone really think they will be less rapacious than the fed, or have your interests as a citizen at heart?
My state is full of anti-tax whiners like Crafter Man, despite the fact that Alaska has the second-lowest tax burden of any state in the union. They don’t want to have to pay for anything whatsoever, but bitch mightily when they are inconvenienced in the slightest. The police aren’t arresting the criminals! Someone’s house burned to the ground! Schools aren’t teaching! Too many potholes! Where are the snowplows? Friggin’ homeless people! But they routinely vote down bond issues for these very services because the debt load will result in a hike in local taxation.
How does one go about “calling” a loan, anyway? I think you might be mistaken on how debt works.
Borrowing and taxing are both legitimate ways for the government to raise revenue. Too much taxes, and you stifle economic growth. Too much borrowing, and you don’t have enough money left over after paying interest to function.
That’s why successful governments do both. People who own American Government debt are investing in government, the same as people who own Microsoft stock are investing in Microsoft. Lots of investment in the government is a good thing, as long as the size of the economy grows with the size of the debt.
I would say that health care is much more of a necessity than guns are. You aren’t going to die without a gun, but you’re much, much more likely to die without health care.
(And I want it noted, for the record, I’m NOT anti-guns. I’m only Anti-Stupid-People-With-Guns. The kind you wouldn’t even trust with a pastry gun. THAT is what scares me.)
Uh hu. Next time you buy a car please double the price and pay me half. Just call me your uncle and we’ll both be happy.
And what benefit do I get from you? I can name many that sales taxes pay for.
You lost the ability to defend yourself and you’re paying extra for National Health Rationing. No thanks.
National Health Care is a myth.
I can delay your diognostic visit and then delay the treatment until you die. In fact, I"m prepared to put that in writing. But before you take that final breath you can look up in the sky and watch Al Gore and Dick Chaney flying to India where they get the treatment you need, I currently have, and only they will be able to afford.
What if the unenlightened society already provided better health care to the poor than the enlightened society does to the masses?
Cite please.
Then that’s just ducky for the poor in the “unenlightened” society, but not so good for the “masses” in the same society who are not poor enough for means-tested tax-funded health care, but too poor to afford (or too sick to obtain) privately purchased health care and/or health insurance.
I think it’s great that the US has (some) tax-funded health care facilities for the poor. I think it’s stupid that the US non-poor have to put up with such a hodgepodge of incompatible healthcare coverage systems, unobtainable healthcare coverage for those with pre-existing conditions, loss of health insurance upon losing employment, etc. etc. etc. It’s a huge barrel of red tape that an intelligent single-payer plan would make much simpler and more convenient.
Fortunately, most of the rest of the US population is beginning to come around to this point of view. The opposition has few arguments to offer that are significantly more coherent than cries of “But socialism is eeeeeevil! Socialized medicine is no good!”
Citizens of countries with UHC systems are on average far more satisfied with their system than the average US taxpayer is with our own system, and US taxpayers are starting to ask “If they can implement a satisfactory cradle-to-grave universal health insurance system without all the inefficiency and failures that our own system suffers from, why can’t we?”
Even if the quality or availability of care in countries with UHC systems is slightly worse than it is for people with good insurance in the current US system—and I have not found that health services in, e.g., Germany or the Netherlands or New Zealand are medically inferior to ours in any significant way—the average uninsured American would prefer slightly inferior health care to no health care at all, or to bankruptcy from health care costs.
And as the pool of uninsured Americans (and the families and friends who worry about them) steadily grows, that preference will eventually make itself felt in legislation for UHC.
“I have a right to freedom of speech, but I do not have the right to a free (government-provided) radio station or printing press.” - Unless you are a democrat then you have the “right” to NPR
Perhaps I am confused about this whole thing because I worked hard, went to school, and earned a good job that provides health care at a fair cost to me. But this wasn’t always the case. When I was younger (19) and just out of high school, I became a dad to an amazing little girl that I am humbled to have as a daughter. She is now 15 and a great Kid. (Done bragging now) At the time of her birth I did not have a “pot to pee in” After applying to every possible “government program” my total out of pocket expense to have her was $15 dollars! The thought of not being able to provide for my Childs needs (or my own) without government assistance, quite frankly scared the crap out of me! So I stopped screwing around with my life, went to school, studied and worked very hard, earned a good paying job, lived below my income (while all my friends were driving new cars I was driving a 1971 dodge power wagon pickup truck and NOT making a $300 a month car payment.) and prepared for the future. Who amongst us in this post did not have the same opportunity (at least those of us in the USA) to make the same choices. By the way, I came from a low/middle class family in an area of NJ that is not the nicest place to live. And if you now find yourself in a tight spot, why should the rest of the citizens of this country be punished (by higher taxes to support your health care) for decisions. Granted, there are exceptions, devastation illness with bills in the millions of dollars etc. And I do believe that the government should be there to help in those extreme cases, but not every day, run of the mill health care. That is OUR responsibility.
As for Guns, I use the money I save on high health care bills to buy as many as possible!
Aren’t they “punished” already by those who can’t afford insurance and are provided health care on the country’s tab? And who mentioned higher taxes? The UK spends less per person on health care than the US and we’ve not had any cites yet on comparisons between those two countries and their health care.
I understand what you are saying; we are already punished by those who can’t afford insurance. However that number is vastly less then providing health care for everyone in the country. Since we live in a society where doctors are free to charge whatever that want to charge for the service they provide, the costs would be through the roof. Or should we tell private citizens, who invested in their future by going to school, what they are “allowed” to charge and set limits on their income so it is fair to everyone? I have to go back to my orig statement, if you cant afford health care, better yourself, take responsibility for what you are responsible for, and take care of it yourself. Don’t put the burden on me or my neighbors. Beside, our government has a bad track record (Rep. & Dem.) in running ANYTHING efficiently and correctly. Look at social security! I sure don’t want them running something as important as my healthcare!!!
I am for less government control, not giving them more. And if we do get NHC what do we look at next? - Oh I knw….Nationalized Retirement, I want to government to pay for my retirement and for the retirement of all those people who will never be able to afford it. That way it is fair to everyone….
When did “FAIR” become a right? I was always taught the amount of prosperity you enjoy, is directly related to the effort you put into earning that prosperity.
Exactly. Poor people are lazy and shiftless. No one decent has ever needed help.
No one has ever lost their house do to unexpected medical bills, no one has ever been denied by their insurance forcing themselves into bankruptcy.
Really the poor and desperate only have themselves to blame. If only they’d put effort into earning prosperity.
I notice you didn’t cite anything comparing the US and UK systems.
Cite that please.
Can a doctor charge any amount to insurance? I honestly don’t know, but could a doctor charge $6k for a physical and get that money from the insurance? Or do most doctors charge what insurance companies are willing to let them have?
**A doc can charge any amount he/she wants to. How it works is, lets say a Doc wants to charge $100 for an exam, but the insurance will only pay $50. The Doc then turns around and charges the patient the remaining balance. And He/She deserves to be paid for His/Her service. **