So here’s my big question, that returns us to the OP:
Working off the premise that you have the right to whip out your pepper spray any time you feel uncomfortable: If you were minding your own business and a man pulled out his pepper spray, what would you think? How would you react?
It would be one thing if you were regretful that you had to cling to this security blanket to just make it through the day that everyone else makes it through without. Those people I can feel sorry for. But people who deliberately provoke violent people because they think they can somehow intimidate them into not being violent? Yeah, it’s hard to have sympathy for them when the inevitable does eventually happen.
The absolute worst thing you can do around someone who is violent is to try to scare them. Violent people respond to fear with anger. And enough anger can lead them to being violent.
And before anyone acts like I’m some idiot who doesn’t know anything because he has agoraphobia–I’ve been in the situation. Someone has been afraid of me and started attacking me before. And even though I’m ordinarily not violent, I could not stop myself from fighting back. And, being stronger, I won. The guy with the gun is stronger than the girl with the pepperspray. You are effectively counting on a bluff to save you.
Do not threaten violence unless you know you can win.\
You will inevitably be hurt by doing this to the wrong person, and I will not be able to engender any sympathy for you when you come to dope to complain about it. We’ve tried to fight your ignorance, but you refuse to let it be fought.
You don’t give a shit about the fear of others, so I don’t give a shit about the fact that you are scared. Deal with it the same way you instruct others to deal with it. And, last I checked, that was not by letting them unsheath their weapon, as there’s no doubt that you would spray them as soon as that happened.
Unless you’re the creeper who makes women uncomfortable by following them, intercepting them in parking lots or while running/hiking, I have no reason to believe that random women treat you like a monster. Do they?
So, once again, per this thread: it’s not reasonable for women to be afraid of strangers because most rapes are committed by non strangers, but since this guy wasn’t a stranger she was perfectly safe and was out of bounds for displaying anything but complete ease. Excellent logic. Carry on.
Right! Which is exactly why when some big scary psycho is sticking his hand up your dress, you definitely shouldn’t do anything to startle him-- after all, he’s just sticking his hand up your dress and if you make him mad, he might murder you. He’s bigger than you, crazier than you, and stronger than you- so the onus is on you to respect his brute force and just go with it. You probably shouldn’t have been wearing that dress anyway. Or walking to your car alone at night.
There’s a name for this sort of thing, but I’ll be darned if I can remember. Something about blame and victims. Hm.
But that is exactly what we are discussing… random women treat men like creeps for no reason. That’s what the whole thread is about.
Like I said before, if you can articulate a reason why you think a man is a threat based on objective reality, I have no problem with you defending yourself. But we are talking about situations where the man has done absolutely nothing wrong and gets treated like a monster anyway.
Okay, I may have some sympathy, but it will be a lot less than if you were trying to deal with your fears without pushing them on others.
So you live in a world where it is completely normal to threaten people who have done absolutely nothing wrong?
What a world that must be.
Well, we are trying to change this whole great societal problem of rape culture, but it’s taking longer than we thought. In the mean time, how do you propose Troppus stay safe on her early morning runs? Keep in mind that she has had to actually use the pepper spray before and while it hasn’t saved her every time, it has more than it hasn’t.
I’m all ears for your suggestions. We’ll let you know how practical they are and if it’s good, maybe it’ll be something we can adapt.
Honey, we have a very different definition of the word ‘threaten.’ Go ahead and keep arguing that strawman you’ve constructed though, it’s beautiful.
+1 to all of this.
You don’t draw a weapon you don’t intend to use. That’s just a basic fact of life.
So if someone draws a weapon, I believe they intend to use it. I am not going to let them draw their weapon and then sit there quietly and hope that they decide not to use it. At that point, I am the victim because* they *have the power.
I have already explained this in great detail with citations, above. If there is a weapon in your hand, I believe that you intend to use it.
So, if I keep my pepper spray on my keys (as many personal safety experts suggest) and am walking through a parking garage with my keys in my hands, that is threatening you with a weapon and makes it perfectly ok for you to go all bad ass attacker dude on me?
What if I’m just holding the keys, not the pepper spray, but it’s visible?
What if the pepper spray is the biggest thing on my key chain, so I’m just holding it out of habit?
Where’s the line, so I- a woman- understand how not to get beaten up by you- a likely much larger man. But remember: I also want to make sure you don’t attack me unprovoked in any fashion, so let me know how I can deter that, too, without setting off the ticking time bomb inside of you.
Please provide cites from law enforcement that talk about ways women can protect themselves in your scenario, because I have always been told to either carry pepper spray on my keys or-- at the minimum-- hold my keys in my hand, key placed between my fingers in case I need to hit someone (how menacing those key knuckles can be!).
When you have the weapon in your hand with your thumb on the trigger, it is ready to be used. Especially when the hypothetical specified she was holding it at chest-height, which I interpret as “ready to spray in my face.” I would consider that a threat.
And no, I’m not some kind of raging monster. I’m not going to go berserk the minute I see a woman with a can of pepper spray. If I was so angry and so hostile that I was ready to attack you like the Incredible Hulk, Lord knows I would have it coming.
I don’t recall the woman in this scenario described by the original poster to have her thumb on the trigger-- just that she was holding it in her hand up by her body. So, given that she doesn’t meet your definition of threatening, as was well, yes?
Again, though, I’m asking the posters in this thread: if it is unreasonable for someone like Troppus to carry pepper spray while running (a precaution suggested to her by law enforcement), as that might set off some crazed maniac— what should she do to protect herself on her early morning runs? Again, the threat she faces is definitely real, she’s faced it. What do you suggest is a better alternative than pepper spray that doesn’t come with the same demeaning qualities to the men she encounters?
I can’t use “objective reality” to speak on behalf of elevator woman. Her fears may have been completely baseless, or she may have had a previous experience or impression of Chimera that caused her to behave in that manner. She isn’t here to defend herself. And I can’t use your definition of “objective reality” to defend my own use of pepper spray on men who may have simply been socially retarded and felt that grabbing my arm was the best way to get my attention. One of them was shouting “Don’t ignore me!!” when he rushed me and grabbed my arm. I will never know if he intended to hurt me, but I do feel completely justified in defending myself and would do so again under the same circumstances. *Most *men and women in the park and on the trail ignore me, recognize me as a regular and smile, some say “hi” as they pass. I’m 42. I’ve been running and hiking alone for 30 years. I’ve been afraid about ten times. I’ve fought back three. (I didn’t fight back when I was raped. I was a tiny, terrified, and powerless kid then. And he was enormous and angry when I tried to get away.)
I like to walk, to run, and to hike in the park and in town. I put myself in locations where crimes are more likely to occur and I take full responsibility for that. I put myself in the path of other loners who may not have the same boundaries that I require. Since I refuse to carry a gun, the only way I can continue to stay in shape and pursue my hobbies comfortably is to arm myself with a measly, small, inoffensive can of pepper spray. I will continue to take it off my wrist and carry it as I walk to my car or if I am bothered by a stranger who doesn’t respect my space. I’m not breaking the law, I’m not “brandishing”, “threatening” or inviting retaliation. I’m attempting to protect myself in the only non-lethal manner that is convenient, legal, and until this thread: non-threatening. I still can’t believe that anyone is surprised or disheartened by a simple can of pepper spray. Nearly every runner I see, including men, wears or carries pepper spray as a dog deterrent. It’s so very common I’m astounded that some men here take it as a personal affront to their character. That’s mind boggling to me.
Though only men have attacked me, I carry it to guard against dogs and strangers of either gender. Thanks to a growing prescription drug problem in my area, purse snatchers have been dragging old ladies to the ground in store parking lots for the last couple years. Most of the offenders have been women who take advantage of their gender’s reputation to ask for directions before they mug a hapless person. Police are encouraging women to either wear purses across their bodies or stop carrying purses. I don’t carry one. But if a sweet, unassuming, youngish woman stopped me in a parking lot and grabbed me, I’d mace the shit out of her, too. Somehow I doubt you’ll accuse me of hating women.
Stay in the kitchen?
Na, I’m sure you can go out as long as you’re escorted by a male family member or your husband. Then you’ll be safe.
Taking the pepper spray out of her hands is actually the aggressive move in this scenario.
Define “monster”. I do get treated as though I’m a registered sex offender. In these situations, I’m doing something that (in my experience) a woman would not be hassled for.
Like?
I didn’t see this edit earlier. I’d press a button and get out of the elevator immediately. I’d assume that he had a bad prior experience, that something about my clothing or mannerisms appeared threatening to him, or that someone had been mugged or attacked by a woman in that garage. I’d ask security as soon as possible if some crime had occurred in the parking garage and report what had happened. And I’d probably come home and say to my husband “Some guy got out his pepper spray in the elevator today. Do I look scary or something?”
Funny thing is, I’d do exactly the same thing I’d do if I had a bad feeling about anyone. I’d remove myself from the situation and avoid that person in the future. I wouldn’t consider it an insult to my entire gender or take it personally.