Guys and creepiness

[solosam]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness
I keep thinking about what I’d do in that situation, and I think I’d go all submissive-dog: lower my eyes, looking away at the floor, hands at my sides, say nothing, stay still.

So the assailant has the power to dictate your behavior and you think that’s okay?

Because I’m not okay with that. If someone pulls a weapon on me (yes, pepper spray is a weapon) I will respond to it. I’m a free man in a free country, in a place I have every legal right to be in. Every state in the union gives me the right to defend myself.

I’m so sick of hearing how “clutching it to your chest” or whatever is not a threat. By law, the weapon cannot leave the holster unless you are justified in using it. Pepper spray is a weapon. Yes, you are legally allowed to possess it. No, you may not take it out of the holster unless you are legally justified in using it.

If anything, I would say the woman has made her situation even more perilous. I was not considering harming her, but now that she has drawn her weapon she has not only provoked me but legally given me the option of defending myself from her aggression. If deterring an attack was her intended goal, she has accomplished the exact opposite.

I do not give a damn about the assailant’s mental state, or what the assailant has suffered in their life, or what their perceptions of me are. The only thing that matters, both from my perspective and in the eyes of the law, is that I had a legal right to be where I was and the assailant drew their weapon for no reason.

ONCE AGAIN, we see the discussion dominated by people who have no idea about use-of-force laws.

The only part of this thread that is worth discussing is that a significant portion of us believe women deserve to be treated differently in the eyes of the law.

[DiosaBellissima]

@Doggo

I’m sure that some of them push it too far because they know that no man will take the ultimate step of physical retaliation with them.

That’s right, no man physically retaliates against women ever due to the severe social punishments for such acts. Ask Rihanna.

Or do you mean just amongst regular people? Because something tells me that’s also probably not a correct assertion, given that plenty of women get the crap beaten out of them every day. And men, too, of course- but I’m just challenging this ridiculous assertion that men will never physically retaliate against a woman, which is just utter nonsense. But please, carry on with this MRA circle jerk about how a woman’s fear of getting raped is statistically and socially illogical, but a man’s fear of being accused of rape is very real and incredibly likely to happen-- so much so that a poster in this thread has gone so far as to claim that he has no romantic relationships with women, for fear of being accused. That is reasonable— a woman holding the mace on her key ring while going through a parking garage late at night, however, is absolutely not reasonable. Makes perfect sense.

[ladyfoxfyre]

@solosam

I’m so sick of hearing how “clutching it to your chest” or whatever is not a threat. By law, the weapon cannot leave the holster unless you are justified in using it. Pepper spray is a weapon. Yes, you are legally allowed to possess it. No, you may not take it out of the holster unless you are legally justified in using it.

Cite? For pepper spray, not a gun.

If anything, I would say the woman has made her situation even more perilous. I was not considering harming her, but now that she has drawn her weapon she has not only provoked me but legally given me the option of defending myself from her aggression. If deterring an attack was her intended goal, she has accomplished the exact opposite.

So you’re going to attack her now? For holding pepper spray in her hand?

I do not give a damn about the assailant’s mental state, or what the assailant has suffered in their life, or what their perceptions of me are. The only thing that matters, both from my perspective and in the eyes of the law, is that I had a legal right to be where I was and the assailant drew their weapon for no reason.

I’d love to see this actually happen, and you have to defend that you attacked a woman because she held pepper spray in her hand. I have a sneaking suspicion no one in the actual law enforcement community would consider your theory that she was an “assailant” who “drew her weapon”.

The only part of this thread that is worth discussing is that a significant portion of us believe women deserve to be treated differently in the eyes of the law.

This keeps getting trotted out. “Oh so you think women are so weak that we can’t even TALK about it!?” It’s fucking stupid every time.

[ladyfoxfyre]

Also, someone is not an assailant until they actually attack you. Calling her an assailant in this case is a clever bullshit word play to make her seem like an offender before anything has actually happened.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@solosam

So the assailant has the power to dictate your behavior and you think that’s okay?

Listen to yourself.

Because I’m not okay with that. If someone pulls a weapon on me (yes, pepper spray is a weapon) I will respond to it. I’m a free man in a free country, in a place I have every legal right to be in. Every state in the union gives me the right to defend myself.

YOU ARE WRONG.

Cite a SINGLE incident in which someone “defends” themself because they see someone else holding a can of pepper spray, and they successfully use a self defense defense in court. It does not happen.

ONCE AGAIN, we see the discussion dominated by people who have no idea about use-of-force laws.

Indeed.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@solosam

By law, the weapon cannot leave the holster unless you are justified in using it. Pepper spray is a weapon. Yes, you are legally allowed to possess it. No, you may not take it out of the holster unless you are legally justified in using it.

Also almost certainly bullshit. Please quote the law you’re referring to.

Edit: Here’s a sample law you can look at. Note that it refers specifically to “deadly weapons.” Pepper spray is generally classified as a nonlethal weapon.

As you were saying, this conversation is in danger of being dominated by people like you who have no understanding of use-of-force laws.

[Troppus]

@blindboyard

Feminists like to talk about Patriarchy theory. That’s whence the idea that “all men are rapists”, the idea is that rape keeps women down and subservient and suchlike and even those individual men who don’t rape benefit from that. Nonsense, of course. The truth is that feminists do that very thing. Hype up the threat of rape, pretend violence is a major threat to women, and so on. USe the conviction rate for crimes mostly effecting men, but the attrition rate for rape to make it look like rapists can get expect to get off scot-free. Publish stats showing “rape victims” who claim not to have been raped, so women think there’s a rapist down every dark alley. Totally ignore the rape of men in prison, the sexual abuse of boys and the 10-25% of normal rapes against men, and especially any female perpetrators, because it doesn’t fit the narrative. Publish the fact that a large percentage of murders of women are by their spouses, try to ignore that this is a result of women very rarely being murdered y anyone else, and not an epidemic of killer husbands. And suchlike. All to maintain their own power, income and cultural relevance, and to push their agenda against men.

Cite for any of the claims in this anti-woman rant? Rather, cite for the claims which are remotely relevant to the OP, please.

blindboyard, I’ve got some stats for you. I’ve carried Mace while running and hiking since I was 13 years old. Sometimes it’s velcroed to my wrist or my thigh, sometimes it’s in my hand. My first can was given to me by a county police officer who was concerned for my safety because I was a small kid running before dawn and often after dark in short winter days. I assumed I would use it for dogs. I’ve emptied three cans after being grabbed: two strangers and one known stalker a couple years older than me. Never used it on a dog. Those three men were never charged with assault or attempted kidnapping because I felt I dealt with the attacks so I never reported them. I also didn’t report a date rape at Myrtle Beach in 1984 because I lied to my parents and told them I was going for a run when I was actually meeting a muscle bound movie extra who overpowered me and took my virginity within 10 minutes of meeting him a block from my hotel. I was dressed for running and I had my pepper spray strapped to my wrist. He grabbed it, threw it out the door, shoved me into a filthy rental house he shared with all the other movie extras and ruined me. I do not suffer from PTSD, nightmares, or any other willies that plague most rape victims, but I’m haunted by the knowledge that he probably repeated this act on other young girls since I let him get away with it. I’d love to go back in time and have the bloody, bruised mess he made of me documented by as many authorities as possible. He’d have certainly been on the sex offender registry for life.

So there’s some “stats” for ya. My tendency to place myself in unsafe conditions by running and hiking in odd hours and remote locations and one foolish decision as a teen caused me to experience four very real and frightening attacks by men. I didn’t report a single one of them. That cancel out any of your fears of being falsely accused? If I were you, I’d set up a poll asking how many women have been sexually assaulted and did/didn’t report the act. You’ll probably find that many modern women consider sexual assault an assumed risk and do the best they can to learn from it, cope with it, and move on without involving the authorities and lenghty court procedures.

Oh, and I’ll continue to *carry * or *wear *my pepper spray in the obvious open any time I travel in an area that is known to be unsafe, unpatrolled, unlit, or generally unknown to me and I’m not in the least bit concerned about hurting the feelings of strangers who study me closely enough to notice I’m carrying it. If I run into you, don’t take it personally; just tell yourself I have an unreasonable fear of dogs.

[solosam]

Here’s another example:

I once read an account of a man who took his child to the park. The women at the park got creeped out, like he was some sort of predator. Again, if it had been a woman with her child nobody would have said a word. So anyway, they confront the man, don’t believe it’s really his kid, and tell him he can’t go anywhere because they’re calling the cops. Cops show up, it’s really his kid, everybody goes home happy because he was cooperative.

Now here’s the thing… The minute the woman told the man he was not permitted to leave, she committed a “citizen’s arrest.” This is an extremely stupid thing to do because citizens do not have the same protections against unlawful detention that a police officer has. She could easily be sued and would have to explain to the jury why she attempted to detain an innocent man.

So, yeah… if you go around treating all men like criminals for no reason whatsoever, be prepared for the consequences.

[solosam]

Oh, and I’ll continue to carry or wear my pepper spray in the obvious open any time I travel in an area that is known to be unsafe, unpatrolled, unlit, or generally unknown to me and I’m not in the least bit concerned about hurting the feelings of strangers who study me closely enough to notice I’m carrying it. If I run into you, don’t take it personally; just tell yourself I have an unreasonable fear of dogs.

I don’t give a shit if you carry your pepper spray. Just leave it in your pocket and don’t threaten me with it for no reason.

[ladyfoxfyre]

@solosam

Here’s another example:

I once read an account of a man who took his child to the park. The women at the park got creeped out, like he was some sort of predator. Again, if it had been a woman with her child nobody would have said a word. So anyway, they confront the man, don’t believe it’s really his kid, and tell him he can’t go anywhere because they’re calling the cops. Cops show up, it’s really his kid, everybody goes home happy because he was cooperative.

Now here’s the thing… The minute the woman told the man he was not permitted to leave, she committed a “citizen’s arrest.” This is an extremely stupid thing to do because citizens do not have the same protections against unlawful detention that a police officer has. She could easily be sued and would have to explain to the jury why she attempted to detain an innocent man.

So, yeah… if you go around treating all men like criminals for no reason whatsoever, be prepared for the consequences.

So your response to “I have been raped once and 3 different men have tried to grab me during the course of my normal day, it is not an unreasonable fear to have” is “I heard on the internet once about some guy”.

[Troppus]

@solosam

I don’t give a shit if you carry your pepper spray. Just leave it in your pocket and don’t threaten me with it for no reason.

I wear it in the open for the same reason that police, security guards, and those with open carry gun permits do: easy access and as a crime deterrent. Somehow I doubt you get all aggressive and preachy when you encounter a cop with a gun, billy stick, and pepper spray on his/her belt.

[solosam]

Here’s an example that will suffice:

http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/bclc/crimweb/bboard/Assault%20in%20Crime%20and%20Tort.pdf

Canadian Criminal Code
PART VIII : OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON AND REPUTATION
Assault

265. (1) A person commits an assault when (a) without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly;

(b) he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose; or

This is exactly what I am talking about. If you pull out a weapon (pepper spray, taser, gun, knife, makes no difference) you have made me believe that you intend to apply force against me. Since I have a legal right to be in the place, and I have given absolutely no indication that I was a threat to you, you have committed assault by brandishing your weapon.

Every single use-of-force book I have ever read indicates you cannot threaten a person with a weapon unless you are justified in using it. If it’s not justified, it stays in the holster.

Here’s another one:

Penal Code § 240 PC - California Assault Law

The California crime of “assault” takes place when you perform an act that is likely to result in the application of force to another person. There is no requirement that an assault must actually result in a violent or forceful act upon another3, only that you

**1.attempted to commit such an act, and

2.had the ability to do so.4**
ONCE AGAIN, if you drew a weapon (pepper spray, taser, no one gives a shit) I perceive that you intended to use it and you have no defense in a court of law. Except for being female.

If there is anyone on the board that doesn’t understand this problem, please answer for me the following question, that I already discussed above. Say I sued you for assault, and my lawyer asked the question:

Lawyer: “When you drew your weapon, did you intend the threaten the plaintiff?”
Woman: “I did not.”
Lawyer: “So why did you draw your weapon?”
Woman: “Ummmmmm…”

What possible answer is there? Did you like the way it smelled? Did you think it was warm and want to give it a hug? **NO. ** The ONLY possible reason you could draw your weapon in this situation is to cause that other person to believe on reasonable grounds, that you have, present ability to effect violence against him.

And that sounds an awful lot like the Canadian definition of an assault. Since you have committed the assault, it is up to you to prove that you were acting in self-defense. Since the male presented no threat to you (at least, until you provoked him by drawing your weapon) you cannot claim that your action was in any way reasonable.

Once again, I have no problem with anyone carrying a knife, pepper spray, taser, guns, whatever. But if I get into an elevator with you, it had better stay in your pocket.

[solosam]

@Troppus

I wear it in the open for the same reason that police, security guards, and those with open carry gun permits do: easy access and as a crime deterrent. Somehow I doubt you get all aggressive and preachy when you encounter a cop with a gun, billy stick, and pepper spray on his/her belt.

What part of my post did you not understand? I don’t even care how you carry it… on your wrist, on your belt, under your hat… who cares? My POINT (Since you seem incapable of grasping it) is that once the weapon leaves the holster/pocket/bandolier/baggie/whatever you have crossed the line between “carrying it” and “intending to use it.”

[Troppus]

@solosam

What part of my post did you not understand? I don’t even care how you carry it… on your wrist, on your belt, under your hat… who cares? My POINT (Since you seem incapable of grasping it) is that once the weapon leaves the holster/pocket/bandolier/baggie/whatever you have crossed the line between “carrying it” and “intending to use it.”

Probably the part where you insist that I keep my pepper spray concealed for your comfort:

@solosam

Once again, I have no problem with anyone carrying a knife, pepper spray, taser, guns, whatever. But if I get into an elevator with you, it had better stay in your pocket.

@solosam

I don’t give a shit if you carry your pepper spray. Just leave it in your pocket and don’t threaten me with it for no reason.

@solosam

Lawyer: “When you drew your weapon, did you intend the threaten the plaintiff?”
Woman: “I did not.”
Lawyer: “So why did you draw your weapon?”
Woman: “Ummmmmm…”

What possible answer is there?

Fear. When I’m stuck in a parking garage elevator with an unknown person who I am afraid of, creeped out by, or feel uncomfortable about, the pepper spray will remain in plain sight, not hidden in a pocket. Same thing on the trail, running after dark or in isolated areas. Your fear of unconcealed weapons does not trump my fear of crime, and your fear of openly carried weapons has no truck when you’re standing next to a cop, security guard, or anyone else sporting a legally held weapon, cane, umbrella, car keys, or heavy purse. You cannot bully me into hiding my pepper spray because you are afraid of it.

[solosam]

@Troppus

Probably the part where you insist that I keep my pepper spray concealed for your comfort:

Fear. When I’m stuck in a parking garage elevator with an unknown person who I am afraid of, creeped out by, or feel uncomfortable about, the pepper spray will remain in plain sight, not hidden in a pocket. Same thing on the trail, running after dark or in isolated areas. Your fear of unconcealed weapons does not trump my fear of crime, and your fear of openly carried weapons has no truck when you’re standing next to a cop, security guard, or anyone else sporting a legally held weapon, cane, umbrella, car keys, or heavy purse. You cannot bully me into hiding my pepper spray because you are afraid of it.

**
READ MY POST.** Since you obviously missed it the first time, I will post it again:

My POINT (Since you seem incapable of grasping it) is that once the weapon leaves the holster/pocket/bandolier/baggie/whatever you have crossed the line between “carrying it” and “intending to use it.”

Soooo, just in case you are still not clear on this, and I’m not sure how I could make it more clear: DO NOT PUT IT IN YOUR HAND. I open-carry a gun for my job almost every single day. I am not afraid of open-carried weapons. You obviously don’t understand the difference between “open carry” of a weapon and putting that weapon in your hand. I don’t care if you open carry as long as it stays there, because drawing your weapon communicates your intent to use it.

You cannot bully me into hiding my pepper spray because you are afraid of it

How is this relevant to the example? Woman gets into elevator, man gets into elevator, woman is somehow justified in threatening man with pepper spray. We’re not talking about “HIDING” the pepper spray, we are talking about drawing the pepper spray and communicating that 1) she has a weapon and 2) she is prepared to use it.

Your irrational fear of anyone armed with a penis does not give you the right to bully me by threatening me with a weapon. And, ONCE AGAIN, because you don’t seem to get this point: Drawing your weapon escalates the situation and is legally indefensible. Leaving it holstered does not.

[Troppus]

@solosam

Soooo, just in case you are still not clear on this, and I’m not sure how I could make it more clear: DO NOT PUT IT IN YOUR HAND. I open-carry a gun for my job almost every single day. I am not afraid of open-carried weapons. You obviously don’t understand the difference between “open carry” of a weapon and putting that weapon in your hand. I don’t care if you open carry as long as it stays there, because drawing your weapon communicates your intent to use it.

I think you’re missing the point of pepper spray. It’s intended use is a crime deterrent. Most small canisters intended for the average consumer are on a key ring, which is generally clutched in the hand. It’s designed to be carried in the hand. It would not be a good idea to carry it in a pocket or purse full of other objects which might trigger the release valve. I could carry a cane, an umbrella, or other multi-purpose sharp/blunt object, but I choose pepper spray for a reason. When I wear it, I’m communicating “Don’t fuck with me”. I assume the three crazy men who grabbed me didn’t notice it or they probably wouldn’t have risked a face full of mace.

Look, I live in an area with a ridiculously low crime rate. Mugging, rape, and sexual assault are rare, but when they occur, it is usually at parks and parking lots. My hobbies, which I prefer to do alone, put me in direct contact with crazy people who frequent trails and parks because those locations are apparently good places to watch people, stalk people, and gawk at women in running apparel. I’m not afraid of the average guy; the average guy knows better than to interrupt a run or a hike with lame pick-up lines. The average guy isn’t going to attempt to intercept me at my car after a run. The average guy may be running and hiking on trails, but the average guy doesn’t* lurk *around parks and trails creeping out lone women. The average guy doesn’t grab a woman by the arm who is clearly trying to escape his attention. I don’t carry pepper spray because I’m afraid of men. I carry it because I’m afraid of creepers at the park.

[Shodan]

@solosam

Canadian Criminal Code
PART VIII : OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON AND REPUTATION
Assault

265. (1) A person commits an assault when (a) without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly;

(b) he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose;

No reasonable person is going to believe that a woman cowering away from you, clutching pepper spray to her chest, is a threat. That is not reasonable.

Here’s another one:

§ 240 PC - "Assault" - California Law & Penalties

The California crime of “assault” takes place when you perform an act that is likely to result in the application of force to another person.

No reasonable person is going to believe that cowering away from me clutching pepper spray to your chest is likely to result in the application of force to another person.

ONCE AGAIN, if you drew a weapon (pepper spray, taser, no one gives a shit) I perceive that you intended to use it and you have no defense in a court of law. Except for being female.

Then please provide a cite of someone convicted of assault for cowering away from someone and clutching pepper spray to their chest.

If there is anyone on the board that doesn’t understand this problem, please answer for me the following question, that I already discussed above. Say I sued you for assault, and my lawyer asked the question:

Lawyer: “When you drew your weapon, did you intend the threaten the plaintiff?”
Woman: “I did not.”
Lawyer: “So why did you draw your weapon?”
Woman: “Ummmmmm…”

What possible answer is there?

Woman: “Because I was afraid he might attack me.”
Lawyer: “Did you spray the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No.”
Lawyer: “Did you say you were going to spray the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No.”
Lawyer: “Did you point the spray at the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No.”
Lawyer: “Did you move towards the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No, I moved as far away from him as I could.”
Lawyer: “Did you do anything at all to threaten the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No. I just wanted him to leave me alone.”

Regards,
Shodan

[solosam]

@Troppus

I think you’re missing the point of pepper spray. It’s intended use is a crime deterrent. Most small canisters intended for the average consumer are on a key ring, which is generally clutched in the hand. It’s designed to be carried in the hand. It would not be a good idea to carry it in a pocket or purse full of other objects which might trigger the release valve. I could carry a cane, an umbrella, or other multi-purpose sharp/blunt object, but I choose pepper spray for a reason. When I wear it, I’m communicating “Don’t fuck with me”. I assume the three crazy men who grabbed me didn’t notice it or they probably wouldn’t have risked a face full of mace.

Look, I live in an area with a ridiculously low crime rate. Mugging, rape, and sexual assault are rare, but when they occur, it is usually at parks and parking lots. My hobbies, which I prefer to do alone, put me in direct contact with crazy people who frequent trails and parks because those locations are apparently good places to watch people, stalk people, and gawk at women in running apparel. I’m not afraid of the average guy; the average guy knows better than to interrupt a run or a hike with lame pick-up lines. The average guy isn’t going to attempt to intercept me at my car after a run. The average guy may be running and hiking on trails, but the average guy doesn’t* lurk *around parks and trails creeping out lone women. The average guy doesn’t grab a woman by the arm who is clearly trying to escape his attention. I don’t carry pepper spray because I’m afraid of men. I carry it because I’m afraid of creepers at the park.

None of this addresses the example under discussion, which is a woman in an elevator scared of her average guy co-worker for no reason.

If a person stalks you, gropes you, tries to intercept you, grabs a woman by the arm, etc. those are all good reasons to use your weapon. Feed them the entire can, I don’t care. In every one of those examples the male is the aggressor.

What I am talking about is the example we were given in which the male did absolutely nothing wrong and yet the woman still threatened him because she was irrationally afraid that he might be some kind of predator.

[solosam]

@Shodan

No reasonable person is going to believe that a woman cowering away from you, clutching pepper spray to her chest, is a threat. That is not reasonable.
No reasonable person is going to believe that cowering away from me clutching pepper spray to your chest is likely to result in the application of force to another person.
Then please provide a cite of someone convicted of assault for cowering away from someone and clutching pepper spray to their chest.Woman: “Because I was afraid he might attack me.”
Lawyer: “Did you spray the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No.”
Lawyer: “Did you say you were going to spray the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No.”
Lawyer: “Did you point the spray at the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No.”
Lawyer: “Did you move towards the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No, I moved as far away from him as I could.”
Lawyer: “Did you do anything at all to threaten the plaintiff?”
Woman: “No. I just wanted him to leave me alone.”

Regards,
Shodan

Okay, two can play this game:

Laywer: “Why did you take the pepper spray out of the woman’s hands?”
Man: “I was defending myself. I was afraid she might attack me.”
Lawyer: “Did you harm the woman?”
Man: “No.”
Lawyer: “Did you say you were going to harm the woman?”
Man: “No.”
Lawyer: “Did you move towards the woman?”
Man: “No.”
Lawyer: “Did you do anything at all to threaten the woman?”
Man: “No. I just wanted her to leave me alone.”

It works both ways.

[Troppus]

@solosam

None of this addresses the example under discussion, which is a woman in an elevator scared of her average guy co-worker for no reason.

If a person stalks you, gropes you, tries to intercept you, grabs a woman by the arm, etc. those are all good reasons to use your weapon. Feed them the entire can, I don’t care. In every one of those examples the male is the aggressor.

What I am talking about is the example we were given in which the male did absolutely nothing wrong and yet the woman still threatened him because she was irrationally afraid that he might be some kind of predator.

I gave you valid reasons I wear my pepper spray in an obvious location or carry it in my hand. I answered your demand to conceal it or leave it sheathed: I will not. When I’ve encountered strangers who startle me, I’ve taken my pepper spray off my wrist and held it in my hand until I reached an area where I feel secure. I will continue to do so, operating entirely on my own instincts and within the law.

Since you’re so concerned with defining the law, instead of spanking me for sympathizing with the fearful elevator woman, shouldn’t you be counseling Chimera to call the police and report the “assault”?