Guys smarter then girls?

Then you would be an “option two” guy. Me, I’m not from there so I have to base my opinions on experiences I have had in the country and from conversations with friends from Australia.

As an American in the country for just a couple of weeks my interactions were of course limited, wheras your experiences as a resident or citizen are undoubtedly more in-depth. But perhaps outside observation has merit? From my observations and the reason I’m in favor of my own third option is that the women I encountered were all in tourism or service industry while I’m hard pressed to recall a single female executive that I met while there and I did meet a fairly decent number while I was there. Maybe it is just the meat industry and import/export companies but I would think it indicative of a general social organization. I also take note of descriptions of what it is like to live there from a female perspective I got from a close friend and co-worker who moved to the US in her late teens. Her descriptions of the country compared to living in the U.S. are my greatest reasons for my opinion of a male dominated nation. Other friends who have lived or spent time there have made similar observations so I will stick with my opinion. And it would do a great deal to explain the statistics submitted. It would also do a gret job of explaining my homely associate’s success with women there.

Alphagene, why do I have to post refs? Why can’t I be the first? Then people can quote me :slight_smile:

Cecil is an old trademark, if you’d like to know what it is Id be happy to post the mark registration info. I have before…Cecil is more like a group of research people, wouldn’t you say?

According to my Intro to Biopsych course, what makes an organism smarter is the encephalization factor. Brain size increases with body weight, fairly linearly…the encephalization factor is the amount above the standard line you are for your body weight. Humans have the highest EF of any species. Elephants, while having considerably larger brains, are pretty much right on the line. The mammal with the 2nd highest? The dolphin. :slight_smile:

Jman

No, girls are smarter first, but then guys outrun them so they buy more of the brains later, and get the good ones. (Then, than, what’s the difference?)

Primaflora, no, you are outdated.

The IQ used to measure intellectual age over actual age. That was the old system. That was the system that tested Marilyn as a child, and gave her the outstandingly phenomenal result. That system was notorious for being bad at testing children.

That system was replaced. The new system just compares all people who take the test and reports answers in a statistical fashion. They assign a bell curve. The highest practical numbers are about 160 to 180. Marilyn’s record number was from the old style. Thus she retains the record, and nobody will ever be able to beat her (unless they change the system again).

I’ve literally just finished a neuropsych essay on this very subject. Well, the subject was “Is there a relationship between the size of the brain and intelligence?” but I included evidence for sex differences.

The answer to the aforementioned question is a decided YES, found repeatedly in dozens of studies using various measures of brain size (often MRI) and intelligence (usually in IQ scores, but other methods have been used). The correlation between brain size and intelligence ranges between 0.35 and 0.69, and averages at about 0.44. A moderate correlation.

Here’s what I found on sex differences.

“Broca may have been one of the first people to confirm a sex difference in brain size in 1861. With a sample of a few hundred brains, he found that male brains were on average 181 grams heavier than female brains. Even when controlled for height and age, the average difference was still 113 grams. This difference has been found across the races, and according to researchers, body size differences only account for 30% of the sex difference in brain size (Rushton, 1997). Since men tend to have larger brains than women, and brain size and intelligence are related, one would expect males to have a higher average intelligence. However, despite these two facts, it has long been insisted that there are no sex differences in intelligence – an example of illogical thinking known as the “Ankney-Rushton anomaly”. Lynn (1999) has conducted a developmental study, taking into account the different rates of growth of boys and girls, and has found that at the age male growth overtakes female growth (at age 16), men develop a 4 point IQ advantage that lasts into adulthood. This finding is consistent with the brain size-intelligence theory, because of men’s larger brains in relation to women’s. Another developmental study found that there is a direct relationship between the narrowing and broadening of sex differences in intelligence and brain size over the ages of 7 to 18 ages. Because girls and boys have different growth rates, their respective brain sizes also have different growth rates, and the differences in their IQs at different developmental stages indicate that the IQ score is associated with brain size (Lynn et. al., 2000). Ankney (1992, 1995, in Rushton, 1997) hypothesised that these sex differences in brain size and intelligence were evolutionary in origin. Men’s role in human societies as a hunter made it necessary for them to develop more brain tissue, required for processing spatial information. However, Wickett et. al. (2000) unexpectedly found that the higher the spatial imaging loading of a test, the less it is correlated with brain volume. Lynn (1994, in Rushton, 1997) proposed that over time men’s brains enlarged to enhance their social dominance [nb. the primary area of evolutionary brain enlargement in primates is the neocortex, which is strongly associated with complex social behaviour], and thus make them more reproductively successful.”

For those of you who mentioned Stephen Jay Gould, he was academically bitch-slapped by the Rushton (1997) article I mentioned, Race, intelligence, and the brain: The errors and omissions of the “revised” edition of S.J. Gould’s The Mismeasure of Man (1996), found in Personality and Individual Differences, 23, 169-180. In particular he was crucified for ignoring all data which (conclusively) contradicted his theories, and omitting paragraphs that were in his first edition because they turned out to be so blatantly incorrect, instead of using the opportunity to correct them.

I should add that I am an intelligent female, I am not sexist, and I’m not saying this is any excuse for men to go around with inflated egos. But I also think that it’s silly to deprive ourselves of knowledge that isn’t PC. Anyway, there is some question about whether it is justifiable to compare men and women in the first place, and Rushton (1997) admits that his definition of intelligence as a sum of verbal comprehension, spatial, and reasoning abilities allow that 4 point difference in IQ he claimed; IIRC 2.3 of men’s 4 IQ point advantage is in spatial abilities. (For the record, it is well documented that men tend to have superior spatial abilities, as is evolutionarily expected.) I haven’t read anything that suggests that women have a wider range of IQ scores, but I certainly don’t think women on average are idiots, and I think that there are logical explanations for these results.

I already responded to the Gould cite, but as for this: Completely wrong! It started in the 19th century. It’s more alive than ever, thanks to MRI. I cited about a dozen studies in my paper, and ALL of them were from either 1999 or 2000. Not only are they using MRI’s, they’re also using autopsies, endocranial volume, external head measures, and yes, the “curvy-ness” of the brain, by which I assume you mean the convoluted surface of the cortex. In addition to sex and race studies, they are doing twin studies, sibling studies, Eastern European vs. Western European studies… you name it. This is one HOT field, and I was overwhelmed with the number of sources available.

Or YK Zen, there’s another option. You could try opening your mind and listening to those of us who are intimately familiar with the country.

FWIW your two weeks in this country gave you a very poor insight into Australia. And no, outside opinion has not merit IMO when it is not backed up by facts. I’m not myopic, I do think sexism is alive and well in Australia but not in the form you describe. Most of the Australian population lives in urban areas, we don’t hang out on farms with the males shearing sheep while the females make scones for afternoon tea. You’ve bought into a national stereotype that is not valid now if it ever was.

You want my analysis of US culture? I’ve never set foot in the US but I’ve watched lots of TV and I am an outside observer :wink:

I second what Primaflora said. Zen has totally got the wrong opinion of Australia.

Wow, and I was pretty sure that I said right off the bat that it was only my observations as an outsider that made me formulate that opinion combined with comments from people who actually are from the country. Oh, wait you did read that part. hmmm, did i remember to state three other possible options explaining the data provided in the study? I’m wondering how my opinion can be a source of debate. I mean you can debate facts sure, but an opinion? I suppose had I stated opinion as fact then I would be right along with you but thats something I really try not to do.

Your only other comment in this thread didn’t even address the OP in my opinion. Just offered more data and your opinion that this thread belongs in great debates. So maybe you have an opinion as to why the data in the OP shows what it shows?

I’m curious why you state that my opinion mas nix while neglecting to comment on the opinions of people from Aus who would concurr? Are they misguided or are their opinions invalid for some reason? Also if the observations of outsiders are invalidated because they are outsiders what do we do with all the cultural anthropologists out there?

That’s great Nimune, maybe it’ll placate Alphagene?

Other than that ‘girls’ is the oppressive word for ‘women’,
thus, should have used ‘men’ & ‘women’ not, ‘guys’ & ‘girls’.

If we are discussing extremes of intelligence, then the old SB LM is still being used to measure kids who ceiling the WISC III or the WPPSI R. I don’t remember what score Marilyn vos Savant got or which test it was. Anyone got details? I’ve heard informally that Michael Kearney got the highest score ever when he was assessed but AFAIK the actual score has not been publicly released. The SB LM is an outdated test but if you want to try to assess over 160, then it is the best tool we currently have. The Stanford Binet company are currently developing a new test with the hope it will be accurate up to 200. I understand they will be using a population of kids who scored highly on the SB LM to help norm the test at the higher ranges.

CA vs MA. I didn’t mean the old formula which is not generally used. I vaguely meant the ceiling effects on the WISC III and the WPPSI R and the SB LM. Once you reach the age of 8, the ceiling effects for profoundly gifted kids kick in and lower scores are obtained. Two schools of thought on this one - some psychs say the later scores are the more accurate and other psychs say they are less accurate. I think they are less accurate. The WISC III FWIW was not developed for identifying highly gifted kids, it ceilings at about 130 and any kid testing over 148 very well might score much much higher on the SB LM.
an article on the SB LM
http://members.aol.com/discanner/dontthrow.html

an article about the Weschler tests

http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Articles/riverside_publishing.htm