Guys You'd LIKE to Support for the Hall of Fame... but Can't

Cafe Society
1

There are several threads now about who belongs in the baseball Hall of Fame, which got me thinking about who belongs and who doesn’t. And that’s often a sore subject, because there are quite a few players I loved and admired, and wish I could endorse enthusiastically for the Hall of Fame, but who fall shor, by my rigorous standards.

A few great ballplayers for whom I always had a lot of affection:

Ron Guidry
Don Mattingly
Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva (oddly enough, I was a Twins fan as a kid- mainly because, when I was 5 or 6, the first ballplayer who ever gave me his autograph was Twins catcher Earl Battey!)

But if I were a sportswriter, could I bring myself to vote for any of these guys as a Hall of Famer? Sigh… no. All were great guys, all were superb ballplayers, but none had quite ENOUGH great seasons for me to justify putting them in the Hall of Fame. I wish I could talk myself into thinking otherwise, but I can’t.

What about you? Who are the players you really WANT to endorse, but just can’t?

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It’s a tough call- a player should have been dominant at his position during his era in order to get in, and that’s a tall order in this day and age. As one sports commentator put it, if you have to justify your choice, they don’t belong in the Hall.

I’m not sure it’s even a number of seasons, but what he did with those he had.

For me, I have always loved Ken Brett (brother of HOFer George Brett), but I know he’ll never be in the Hall, despite a passion for the game shared by few players today. Granted, he is represented in the Hall with some records, such as being the youngest pitcher to ever pitch in a World Series game, and throwing the pitch that Hank Aaron hit out for his 700th HR! Ken was a left-handed pitcher who could also hit the hell out of the ball.

Who else do I love but am not holding my breath for?

Mike Scioscia
Brian Downing
Bo Jackson
Jim Edmonds (but that’s just 'cause I’m friends with his mom!)

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Here are the official guidelines for the curious-

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/rules.htm

(note especially section 3-Eligible Candidates, 5-Voting and 6-Automatic Elections)

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The first answer that came to mind was Keith Hernandez. I watched him play in Double A ball for the Arkansas Travelers as a kid, and was a Cardinals fan in the 70s and 80s before moving to Atlanta, and I always admired how he played the game. I realize that he was a bit full of himself, but as a player it’s difficult to find many holes in his game – lack of power, perhaps, but his wasn’t an era when HRs were as plentiful as today. For defensive ability at 1B and general on-field savvy, he has few equals. Nevertheless, even though his career spanned 17 seasons, he really only played about 12 full seasons, and in a career that brief you sort of have to be utterly dominant in the game to merit enshrinement in the Hall, and he was never that, even in 1979 when he shared the MVP award with Stargell. In the major offensive categories, he only led the league once in BA, twice in Runs, once in OBP, and once in doubles. In short, while I’d love to be able to tell his detractors that he may have been an arrogant jerk but he’s still HOF material, I can’t quite do it.

Another Cardinal favorite of my youth that I’d like to be able to argue for is Ted Simmons. He was on all of the Cardinal teams I loved growing up; his years in Milwaukee roughly corresponded with my late high school and college years, when I lost interest in baseball for a while. When I got to Atlanta in 1986 after college, Simmons was here waiting for me with the Braves. While he had the longevity and a little of the power than Hernandez lacked, with the possible exceptions of the 1975 and 1977 seasons he generally was a half-notch to a full notch lower offensively than Hernandez. Being a catcher for most of that time makes up for some of the discrepancy, but not enough to make him HOF-worthy.

As a Braves fan since 1987 or so, I’d love to be able to argue for John Smoltz, and maybe if he turns in another two or three 50+ save seasons, I will; if he retired today, however, he’d be just a bit short. In that, he’d be in the same boat as his opponent in Game 7 of the 1991 World Series, Jack Morris, who is about as close as you can get to being an HOF-caliber pitcher without actually making it, IMO. Ditto, on the position-player side, for Dale Murphy, whom I also had the pleasure of watching for a few years here in Atlanta.

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IMO Smoltz NEEDS to remain a closer if he wants to go to Cooperstown. With the exception of his 24 win season, he never put it all together for a full year despite having great stuff. If he gets 300 saves, however, that should be enough, along with his Cy Young as a starter, to get him into the HoF.

Anyway, the guys I wish I could say were HoF material, but can’t, are:

Fernando Valenzuela–Had more love for the game than 99% of the players active today. How many guys would go play in Mexico in their late thirties to try to get back into the big leagues. I was thrilled when he pitched his no-hitter after he was already washed up. I think Tommy Lasorda misused him throughout his career and all those screwballs didn’t help his arm either. Too bad.

Sandy Alomar, Jr–One of the top catchers in baseball when he was healthy, but he probably spent more time on the disabled list than in the lineup.

Benito Santiago–Great player at the start of his career, then his hitting declined and managers started calling him lazy. Now the guy’s older than dirt and playing better than ever, but it’s too little too late.

David Cone–Went from talented hothead to strikeout machine and when his arm started to fail him, he reinvented himself as a finesse pitcher. He has a Cy Young and two 20 win seasons, but more downs than ups in his career. He was always respected, but not dominating enough.

Orel Hercheiser–Incredibly solid and consistent pitcher, but had only one huge dominating season.

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I have a couple from the Oakland A’s teams of the 70’s:

Bert Campaneris - the most underrated member of the A’s teams that won three straight World Championships. Solid shortstop who had 2219 hits, excellent speed (649 stolen bases), and could deliver in clutch situations (e.g., the 1973 World Series where he could’ve arguably been selected the MVP in place of Reggie Jackson). But does he belong in the Hall of Fame? Probably not.

Vida Blue - He had that one HUGE year in 1971 (24 victories, 301 K’s, a 1.82 ERA, the Cy Young Award, and the MVP), two other seasons of 20+ wins, 209 lifetime victories but problems with controlled substances (specifically cocaine) derailed what look liked a sure-fire HOF career.

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When I saw the title, I immediately thought of Don Mattingly.
The other player I thought of was Barry Bonds.
Seriously though, Joe Carter.

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Did you know that he recently passed away?

http://espn.go.com/classic/obit/s/2003/1119/1665781.html

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I was a big fan of Bill Madlock as a kid. He won a four batting titles, was a three time all Star, he got a ring with the '79 Pirates, career .305 hitter, and has 2000 hits – but by no means is he HOF worthy.

But, as a little 8 year old mouthbreather going to games at Three Rivers Stadium, he was the best.

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Yeah dan, I know. My husband and I both cried when we got the news.

One of the reasons I dislike Barry Bonds is that he’s not a very good citizen. But if you look at the HOF, there are plenty of not-so-nice guys already in there, so I guess it shouldn’t matter.

It’s like I would have told Pete Rose (had he asked me!)- you can be an asshole, you can drink to excess, take drugs, beat your wife and even kill someone (allegedly) and still be in the Hall of Fame. The only thing you can’t do is bet on baseball or associate with those who do.

A great guy? Easy- Frank Thomas. Never said no to an autograph, a picture or a handshake. I would see him outside Anaheim Stadium an hour after everyone else had left, because a few more kids wanted to meet him or have him sign something. Our hometown players wouldn’t always do that, but Frank Thomas did it in every town, at every ballpark he played in. He never turned anybody down, even the grownups. A very nice guy to the fans who paid his salary.

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In what particular way is Barry Bonds a bad citizen? He may be unfriendly and not cooperative with the press, but you don’t read about him getting arrested.

It’s not like he’s Ty Cobb.

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He seems to be quite the asshole with press and fans, he is being subpoenaed in an illegal steroids case… Granted, he has not been charged with anything, let alone convicted. But it looks bad, and you are who you associate with, whether you like it or not.

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Different HOF, but Robert Smith. He was one of my favorite runners to watch, always a threat to turn a rush up the middle into a 70 yarder down the sidelines. Unfortunately, never stayed healthy…

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Yep, I loved Joe Carter, too, one bright spot on the Indians of the '80s. I also loved Fernando and Orel, and my uncle played little league w/Munson. Although, Rackensack, I think Jack Morris does belong in the Hall, because the game changed in his time, and while I am not happy about it, all those 17-18 wins easons were as good as 20 used to be.

Baseball guru Bill James wrote something in one of his Abstracts that I still recall. His characteristics of a HOF’er. In sum:
A. Among the best ever to play the game. (Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, etc.)
B. Among the best ever at his position. (Brooks Robinson, Roberto Clemente, etc.)
C. Dominant player at his position in his league throughout a long career - i.e.: Clearly the best of his era if not of all time (Ralph Kiner, Bob Gibson, many other pitchers go here, including arguably Jack Morris, but also the very dominant but shorter ones like Kiner or Roy Campanella)
D. Outstanding level of play for an extended period, consistently far and above the mere good players (the long, outstanding career guys, Molitor, Ashburn, Snider, etc.)

 Morris could arguably be in "D", also, but I don't know, he didn't pitch 20 years like some guys.  Just pitching 20 years won't do, of course - Hershiser is a perfect example.  Long career, but not enough dominant season, as was pointed out.  Same with Hernandez had he played longer; he was great enough defensively, but except for 1979 and, I woudl argue, 1984 he wasn't far and above enough, even if he had played longer.
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Hershiser and Morris each pitched 18 years (Hershiser, 1983-2000; Morris, 1977-1994).

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Okay, thanks, I was thinking 1982-2001 for Hershiser.

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Joe Carter is a good choice. He always played hard. Kent Hrbek and Ken Singleton were like that too. None of them are HOFers by any stretch, but I always liked them.

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Can’t say I blame for being an asshole to the press. You have a cite for him being an asshole to fans?

Unless it’s shown that he’s been using steroids, I don’t care much about that case.

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Well, he didn’t make any friends when he told everyone he was better than Babe Ruth…

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Bonds has told fans they need to get a life when they asked for an autograph or a photo–these are Giants fans, mind you. (ESPN magazine). He has some other “richard” instances, although he isn’t as heinous as Cobb by any means.

Sadly not good enough: Mark Grace, Gary Gaeitti, Jack Morris, Kent Hrbek, Bernie Williams, Paul O’Neill, Charlie Johnson, Omar Vizquel, Buck Freeman, Gavvy Cravath, and Smokey Joe Wood. My manager would be Tom Kelly. That’s a pretty good team, maybe adding Jim Kaat, Tommy John, Rick Sutcliffe, and the elder Brett to my pitching staff.

In a good to average year, that’s probably your World Series champion team.