This is the breaking news thread. Trump said these things nearly two weeks ago and they were widely reported on at the time.
We need some sort of cross index between the two, but it does weed out the yelling and hollering.
You are encouraged to post links between the two. Especially from the news thread to the discussion thread.
Yeah, not strictly appropriate for this thread, but I enjoyed the comic relief.
UN chief’s comments spark fierce row and Israeli calls for resignation:
I can’t disagree with anything Guterres says, and it’s his job to speak the truth and good on him. Of course, it would have been nice if he’d mentioned that sending troops across borders to murder civilians in sadistically medieval ways also violates international law…hopefully that was in the part you didn’t quote.
Out of curiosity, is anyone aware of any major war since 1945 in which one or both sides weren’t credibly accused of violating international law?
I believe one of the reasons quite a few people reject this discurse is that it evidently puts the blame for those wrongdoings on israel (which is mostly true) … but seems to be completely oblivious to the fact that Hamas is also systematically (and that is the key word here) stifling the economy, syphoning obscene amouts of money away from civil society and infrastructure projects for their own purpose/interest, lining their pockets with money …
The symbolism of tearing up miles and miles of water pipes to convert them into rockets is strong here … and that is something that should also be put into perspective when talking about people not having drinking water in gaza.
In a way not unlike N-Korea, which have all kinds of sophisicated weapons programs, but their populace eating grass.
https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-24/secretary-generals-remarks-the-security-council-the-middle-east
Pulling out the parts of his remarks that address Hamas:
I’ve seen this mentioned, but only in the context of a Hamas brag. Is this something that there’s clear evidence of happening on any widespread basis? A quick Google search divides into a few categories:
- Youtube videos from Hamas accounts (good god), which I’m not gonna watch and which are completely untrustworthy.
- Articles with unsourced vague claims.
- Tweets.
- Articles that source the claim back to a Hamas brag.
So you have seen Hamas brags, from Hamas accounts, and articles sourced back to those brags. But you don’t believe Hamas proudly stands behind these claims.
Suppose we apply your logic to issues in America:
Trump brags that he won the election, you have seen Youtubes from Trump accounts, and articles that source back to Trump brags. But you don’t believe that Trump proudly stands behind these claims.
I don’t believe shit that Hamas says. They might stand behind their claims, but that doesn’t mean I believe them.
This was years ago, but I’ve been to Sderot which is one of the most commonly hit towns and they had collected tons and tons of scap from rockets made of both water pipes and, more prominently, streetlight poles.
IIRC someone was making art out of the scrap but I forget.
The main reason quite a few people reject this discourse is that it confuses the cause with the effect. Israel did not first occupy the territories and as a consequence the Palestinians hate them and are just now attacking them. The Palestinian Arab hatred and belligerence toward Israel happened first (never forget that Israel accepted the UN Partition Plan, and that the Hebron massacre of 1929, the Jerusalem massacre of 1936 and the Grand Mufti’s collaboration with Hitler pre-dated any Zionist sovereignty at all, much less occupation), and the consequence of that was an occupation that was necessary for Israel’s own defense.
The Palestinian narrative that the UNSG has bought into likes to pretend that history began in 1967…and that, only after the Six-Day War concluded.
Thanks, that’s helpful. I mean, terrible, but it answers my question.
Isn’t the symbolism as much in proudly claiming to have torn out water mains to make rockets as in actually doing so? Choosing to deprive one’s subjects/citizens of existing infrastructure that fills a most basic need in order to mostly ineffectually slam one’s fists into the armored chest of one’s enemy is not something to brag about on a couple of different levels.
I mean, they’re real goddamned jerks. But if the stolen water pipes are going to be blamed for Gaza’s lack of water, they need to have actually, y’know, been stolen.
FWIW I haven’t heard about pipes being torn out of the ground so much as pipes (and lighting poles, which were sent because of complaints that Gaza’s streets were too dark which led to robbery, assault, murder, etc) were cut up for rockets before ever getting installed. So more about the misappropriation of aid rather than active destruction of existing infrastructure.
But again, that was a few years ago - if less of that kind of aid has been coming in maybe there is now credible evidence that Hamas tears up existing infrastructure to launch at Israel.
30 seconds on google:
Here’s a claim by Hamas from 2019 saying that after nearly running out of piping to use for rockets due to the blockade, they were able to extend their capabilities by digging up abandoned irrigation pipes the abandoned Israeli settlements that were left behind in the withdrawl from Gaza.
It’s possible the footage released by Hamas shows them digging up these irrigation pipes; or it’s possible that since this story was relayed in 2019 as having happened in the past that Hamas has exhausted that resource already and moved on to tearing up municipal water pipes in Gaza itself.
The first set of photos is from Sderot. Some of those rockets are indeed made out of water pipes. Others are made, as I mentioned, out of light poles. When I was there, around 2014, most were light poles.
The question is whether Hamas is actively tearing up the water pipes that deliver water to Gaza city proper, or if these are irrigation pipes, or if this video was a PR stunt by Gaza and what they’re actually firing are pipes that came in as humanitarian aid and never got buried to begin with.
Any of those options are horrible and justify Hamas’ destruction. But exactly how horrible Hamas is remains an open question.