handsomeharry has been banned

User handsomeharry has been banned for trolling, on the basis of his performance in this thread.

Normally, we don’t announce banned trolls in ATMB, but given that the user in question has been around since 2001, I felt it was appropriate in this instance. The situation is also unusual, as compared to most other bannings, in that the user had not been given any previous warnings for bad behavior. I’m going to explain the reasoning for that, and in a third break from normal procedures, I’m going to leave this thread open for a little bit in case anyone has questions or concerns. However, I don’t want to see a bunch of people in here just celebrating that we banned someone unpleasant. If the thread starts to turn into a “pile-on the banned guy” thing, I’m going to close this thread. In the meantime, I’m going to do my best to anticipate some likely questions, and answer them ahead of time.

So, first, was handsomeharry banned just for being a self-admitted Nazi? No, or at least, not entirely. The SDMB has always operated under the principle that repulsive speech is best met with more speech, not with suppression. Openly advocating for fascist or explicitly racist policies is not, in and of itself, reason enough for a ban. In the Pit thread in question, harry was not actually advocating for any position at all: he was self-identifying as a Nazi, insulting anyone who drew the most logical assumptions about someone who would self-identify as a Nazi, and then refusing to explain how his version of being a Nazi was any different from anyone’s preconception of what being a Nazi means. He was also clear that this was not something he would merely refuse to explain in the Pit, but was rather something he would not discuss with anyone on the board, in any capacity. That’s not discussing your honestly held political beliefs, that’s just trolling.

Secondly, is trolling against the rules in the Pit now? Yes, and it always has been. However, the definition of trolling in play in the Pit necessarily requires some modifications given the intended purpose of the Pit. The normal definition of “posting things just to provoke a response” doesn’t entirely work in a forum that exists specifically to call other posters assholes. There is, however, a general expectation that if you’re calling another poster an asshole, you’re doing it out of some genuine grievance, and not just because you like stirring shit up. It was clear, in the Pit thread in question, that harry was not posting to defend or advance any particular political position, but simply because he knew that saying, “I’m a Nazi,” would be a good kick to the beehive, and get everyone agitated - and that the less he described his actual beliefs, the more agitated the other posters in the thread would become.

Thirdly, can people be banned with no warning now? Yes, and once again, that’s always been the case. We’re not required to give out warnings or suspensions for rules violations - per the user agreement, we can ban anyone on a first offense. We generally avoid doing this, because we think the 'Dope works best with a diverse range of voices, and we usually recognize that just because we disagree with a particular poster, that doesn’t mean they don’t bring value to the board. So we’re usually pretty liberal (heh) with second chances. But we’re talking about an honest-to-God Nazi here. While we’re willing to tolerate views even that far out of the mainstream, on the basis that sometimes Dopers like an easy fight, that’s not a position that anyone on the moderation staff is particularly happy to see on the board, and not one that we’re going to go out of our way to allow to be heard here if they can’t otherwise abide by the rules. Particularly one who, as in harry’s case, had just demonstrated pretty conclusively that they weren’t interested in actually discussing their views.

I think that covers the major questions around this particular banning, but I’m sure I’ve missed a couple. Go ahead and ask for clarifications on any point you think I didn’t touch on, but again, please try to keep the questions focused on moderation policy, and not on the character of the banned poster.

I just wanted to say that I appreciate the elaboration. Sometimes you all get put in an unenviable position, and it’s nice to see the wheels turning on a decision.

Yeah, I welcome the transparency. Can’t fault your logic either. I like it that SDMB continues to embrace a non-censorious attitude, and that what is forbidden is behavioral, not the content of someone’s thoughts and posts per se.

Thank you. Zero tolerance for Nazism and Anti-Semitism is one of the few times I agree with Liberals.

If trolling is against the rules in the Pit, how came it to be that, for months on end, one of the Pit’s own moderators railed against someone who need not be named, for being a troll?

If trolling were against the rules, that moderator could have just said, “Modding: don’t troll,” and life would have been so much happier!

I don’t recall ever calling anyone a troll in the Pit, outside of official moderator actions. Are you maybe confusing me with a different mod?

While I agree that discussion is always preferable, holocaust denial is hate speech in more than one country, and isn’t tolerated on this board. That alone should have been a banning offense. The trolling was just icing.

You ARE the only Pit mod, correct?

Defining a troll can be hard at times, but when you see one, you have little doubt about it. In this case, the member did little to promote an unpopular agenda or convince anyone he honestly believed it. Instead, he used that platform to insult just about everyone who posted in the thread.

I appreciate the effort herein in explaining the staff action.

Holocaust denial isn’t an insta-ban. It certainly gets you put on a very short leash, but it’s not out-and-out forbidden.

Yes, but I’m not the only mod who posts in the Pit.

You’re thinking of another mod, who isn’t a Pit mod.

Mods can call other posters trolls in the Pit just like any other poster can, but if you’re wondering why a mod who thinks a poster is a troll doesn’t say, in the Pit “Mod Note: Stop trolling” it’s because of two reasons.

  1. Other mods usually leave it to the mods of that forum to mod it instead of modding it themselves.

  2. More importantly, not all the mods agree on what or who is a troll. A mod may think a poster is a troll that another mod doesn’t think is a troll…just like the case is with posters opinions. One mod cannot ban on thinking someone is a troll alone unless it’s very obvious, extreme, or clear cut.

First, this is entirely contrary to what the OP actually said.

Second, there are plenty of “Liberals”, myself among them, who are opposed to all zero-tolerance policies, especially those based on content as opposed to behavior.

[Jeremy Clarkson Voice]Or was he?[/JCV]

Who cares, Jeremy, who cares?

So he was here for fifteen years, and only recently got around to telling he was a Nazi? Not much of a troll if you can keep a secret like that for fifteen years.

Not thrilled about the “no warnings” thing but the man had plenty of chances to be a more constructive addition to the board and passed on all of them. He certainly won’t be missed.

Was the decision based solely on that thread or on a broader review of his recent contributions?

Was hh intentionally trying to rile up the SDMB and bathe in negative attention? Maybe. But his pattern of refusing to answer questions, insulting the questioners, and claiming to be unfairly abused by the board are typical tactics of political debaters. I’m just saying precedent has already been established by the potential leaders of our country, and some citizens have become convinced this is the proper way to conduct topic discussion.

hh had no integrity because it’s no longer valued.

So refusing to discuss your political beliefs is trolling? I assume that applies only to some political beliefs - what are they?

This is bullshit, obviously - the poster in question refused to be baited into doing something ban-worthy, so you banned him. No mod notes, no warnings - he was banned for expressing a political opinion, and insulting people. In the Pit.

IOW yes, entirely.

Regards,
Shodan

I don’t agree, because he invited the attention, by starting a pit thread about a five-year-old thread and then claiming to be something (a semi-Holocaust denier) that he refused to define (or distinguish from a Holocaust denier).

Saying “I’m a Nazi” and then refusing to answer questions about it seems pretty damn different than, say, saying “I’m a Republican” and then refusing to answer questions about it.

Seems entirely appropriate to me, and I salute the mods. Well done once again.

IOW in the Pit, he refused to defend his political position, and instead insulted people. And this is a banning offense, with no warnings or mod notes. In the Pit.

Regards,
Shodan