Actually, I’d have to say that it’s prolly one of RAH’s better works, of course, you have to read the whole thing to get the point of it.
It does get better as it goes along, and RAH does drop that gibberish language as the book progresses. Oddly enough, the inspiration for the style of the novel is Joyce’s Ulysses which RAH hated.
Hey, I liked Asimov’s ego!
The man might have boasted of himself often, but there was always – even in print – an undercurrent that he wasn’t taking any of it seriously, that he was just winking at the audience and mocking himself in the process.
And Ellison is definitely a major pain-in-the-arse, but there’s no doubt he can write. And love him or hate him, but IMO he’s always done a great job of articulating why he feels the way he does.
And The Comics Journal sucks, just for having Gary Groth at the helm.
Scylla: Varley? Varley??? You have read the stuff (all 3) written post-Cirrocco Jones, right? Gaia was a fun romp, but otherwise it’s been a disappointment.
Gakk! Heathen! The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is Heinlein’s best work. Time Enough for Love by comparison is so-so at best.
His actual worst IMHO, is Farnham’s Freehold.
Scylla: You don’t care for Varley or Zelazny?
Tsk. Tsk, I say. Anyone who like The Moon is a Harsh Mistress should have at least gotten half a smile from Steel Beach :).
This thread is positively crawling with heathen :p.
What?!? Compared to Number of the Beast?!?? FF at was at least OK until the bomb shelter got to The Future (and actually for a while after that); after that it went to hell. But at what point anywhere in NotB was it well written or engaging?
And I agree, TMIAHM is far and away the best Heinlein contribution. Great stuff.
And I’m still hoping Vernor Vinge has one more great yarn in the making. Been quite a while.
When I was 14 and 15, I admired Harlan–I wanted to be like him. But I’ve grown up and apparently he hasn’t.
The last straw (well, the last two straws) for me was when he raised a fuss and stole some of the credit for The Terminator, then turned around and wrote a book calling Gene Roddenberry a credit-thief.
(Also, he never published The Last Dangerous Visions. What’s up with that?)
It was slated for publication, but the Scientologists stopped it.
Varley is cool, but is relentlessly, embarassingly feminist. Two bucks says he’s married. Very married. Severely married.
Phil Farmer is Kilgore Trout. I don’t care who Deep Throat was.
When I publish my Science Fiction History Calender, the day Larry Niven met Jerry Pournelle will be “Black Tuesday”.
The Kzinti would kick the Klingon’s ass, but all are but pawns of the Puppeteers.
And Panspermia is the only explanation for why DNA is so complex and the Universe so brief.
I almost agreed with Ellison about Star Trek turning your brain into bat guano, until I noticed that the article was written in '89… LONG before *Voyager
[/quote]
was ever made. Maybe he can see into the future?
I just have to contribute my favorite skewering of Harlan Ellison. Apparently, at an SF con, he approached a tall, statuesque blonde and said to her, “What would you say to a little fuck?”
She looked down at him, and said, “Go away, little fuck.”
That is in my book of best brushoff lines ever, especially given the crudity of the pickup line.
As for Heinlein, I did go off him when I was a teenager, and I forget whether Job or The Number of the Beast was the last straw. I don’t like books written with a lot of dialect, but I just finished The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, and I though the dialect contributed to showing the different mindset on the moon, but that’s a CS debate.
Back to the barbecuing! (Shish kebabs today?)
CJ
Oh, so close, but thanks for taking the bait 
I was talking of course about I Will Fear No Evil. The worst-written characters of all time meet the most gimmicky and uninteresting plot of all-time, and Heinlein’s unreadable jargon-language is thrown in to top it off (all the scenes with the artist Joe are totally unreadable.) I defy you to finish reading that absolute pile of crap.
Stranger pissed me off with the totally ridiculous conversion of the character from actively anti-cannibalism to eating Mike at the end, and “grok” is a stupid word, but I otherwise liked it. Number of the Beast is totally unreadable, but it’s the only way I know how to relate to the fictional character of my SDMB and real life buddy Tars Tarkas. Farnham’s Freehold is great if not for the guy castrating himself, which is just icky. All these novels are gods compared to I Will Fear No Evil, which is so bad it should never have been published. In fact, it should have been banned everywhere for being so shitty, and all the manusrcipts should have been gathered together and placed in a long slit trench at the Rainbow Gathering for all the stoned hippies to shit upon.
Time Enough for Love is the best Heinlein IMHO, it’s the only one I re-read with any regularity, and the mini-stories are enjoyable. Could have done without the incest, but a good book nonetheless. Lazarus Long is the ultimate libertarian character in sci-fi literature, just as Richard Rahl has become in fantasy literature.
And SPOOFE is right, Voyager was the brain-dead Trek. But I really thought all the series before that were interesting and explored intellectually challenging issues.
I’d be interested to see this comment expanded. (Just curious.)
To be fair, I Will Fear No Evil was written just before Heinlein had major medical problems, and he couldn’t revise and polish it up to his usual standards, which up to that time were pretty good. Fearing that he might never be able to finish it, the publisher rushed it into print.
It shows.
“Repent, Ellison!” said the pissed-off Ben…
Wait. Wait. We’re all missing something important here.
Ike’s MET both Ellison and Asimov. He is my new Short Duration Personal Savior for the week.
Poor Isaac. Killed before his time. (You know the story, right? AIDS, transfusion, doctors insisted he cover it up?) If he’d gone public, AIDS wouldn’t have the stigmata it has now, I think.
Ellison… I dunno, sure he’s a big ol’ jerk, but he’s right most of the time. Except when he’s wrong, but it’s all his opinion and he’s not disguising it. He cares.
Generally speaking, I approve of him more than, say, Piers Anthony.
Besides, we’ve seen him do a SF TV show. And it turned out he put his money where his mouth was, and it pretty darn well worked.
E-Sabbath, which TV show is that? I know that Harlan’s worked on a bunch, but I don’t know of any that were specifically his.
**
Unless, of course, he’s making up facts to suit his argument, as is claimed in the TCJ article.
Personally, I think Ellison is a great stylist, but I’ve never been convinced he had much to say. I feel like it’s too easy to parody Ellison with a Frederick Brown-style one sentence short story:
“He howled with rage and despair as it delicately crawled into his ass.”
I heard in interview with him once on Larry King, and I don’t remember him saying anything at all beyond grousing about “Oh yeah, that guy? Total dick. And him? He’s a dick too. And let me tell you about this guy…”
**
I approve of the average pedophile more than I approve of Piers Anthony. Hey, come to think of it…
I never got to meet the Good Doctor, but Harlan Ellison wil forever be in my good graces because of a note he sent me in 1988. He had written an article in Analog excoriating the bad behavior of fans at conventions, which brought the predicatable shitstorm in correspondence. I wrote to tell him that he was right and to keep on being a gadfly to keep people honest. He responded with a short note that has made me he a fan of his personality as well as of his works.
The Groth/Ellison mutual hatred has been a been a topic of fan gossip for years. Their enmity is personal and started because Harlan’s comments in Comic Journal about a comic artist got Ellison, Groth, and TCJ sued. This site has links to articles that detail the lawsuit and the feud.
And Farnham’s Freehold is a tad less icky than The Number of the Beast, but in a quantity than can be measured only in nanoangstroms.
I didn’t say it was his show, Tuckerfan, but I’ve got to say that both the episodes of Star Trek and B5 that had him involved in them were darn good. I was referring mostly to B5, though.
Ah. If you’re going to talk about shows which he had a hand in that were damned good (at least his contributions), then you’ve got to include his work on The Outer Limits and The Twilight Zone as well.