Harley bashing & Coldfire

The BBQ Pit
81

I have been playing with motorcycles for over 20 years and I have worked in the industry (but I did not stay there full time, the bike business is FUN! but it’s a tough way to earn a living, there just isn’t much money in it). I have owned Honda’s, Norton’s, BSA’s and Triumph’s (both old and new) and I have been around every brand of bike that you can think of. My take on the HD deal is this: a new Roadstove is a $14,000.00 bike that the HD dealer is going to sell you for $24,000.00 (we refer to that as the “idiot tax”), HD’s are sold as “American bikes” but they are NOT!!! American made and they have not been ALL American made for a long time, that said the modern ones are better (but not much faster) than the older ones because of the use of imported parts. HD is “all form no substance” and if you like the form you are certainly welcome to embrace that as a lifestyle (or whatever). As far as the exhaust thing goes, you (as the assaultee) can laugh at the goofball on his butt jewelry because a certain amount of restriction is needed to keep optimum tuning and the moron with his “shotgun” pipes is actually losing performance, mileage and longevity because of his exhaust choices. With regard to the BMW quality control problems and speaking as a BMW dealer I must ask CITE?, that is some kind of myth, the only problem I have seen was that the early EFI R1100GS’s surged mildly at low RPM’s. The crap about HD value WAS true for about 5 years in the mid 90’s but those days are over, if you don’t believe me check Ebay Motors or buy a newspaper.

Now for the HD jokes:

What do Harley’s and hound dogs have in common?, they have the same initials and they both like to ride in pickup trucks.

Harley, constant speed, variable noise.

Harley, the most overpriced and underwhelming motorcycle out there.

Unclviny
'66 BSA A65H, '52 Triumph TRW, '36 BMW R2

82

I’m just giving you a hard time. The Sportster is a great bike and I wouldn’t be ashamed to ride one either. I have decided though, if I drop the cash on a Harley, it’s either going to be the V-Rod or the Springer Soft Tail.

Oh, and concerning the OP. My friend (I’ll call him “T”) relayed a story about what happened to him when he was riding his bike to North Dakota to visit his grandparents.

The Sturgis rally was going on during this time and T happened to meet up with a group of “hardcore” bikers at a gas station. One of the bikers started giving T a hard time about riding a “piece of jap crap.” T told me that he was scared shitless, as there was a bunch of them bikers and he was all by himself. At that moment, the obvious leader of the group came out of the convenience store and heard what was going on. He walked up and addressed the biker that was harrassing T:

“What the fuck is wrong with you? Haven’t you learned by now that it doesn’t matter what you ride, as long as you ride?” With that, the leader apologized to T and shook his hand.

[Forest Gump]
and that’s all I have to say about that.
[/Forest Gump]

83

Dropzone,
Beware!!!, Sporty’s are notoriously hard to sell (folks get tired of them fast), if you must have one buy it used (it’s a buyers market) so when you get tired of it you haven’t lost so much.

Just remember, you’re married to a Sporty, I hope you like it (hint, hint, there is a reason they are $6,399.00 new).

Unclviny

84

[hijack] About a month ago I had to do an official Chinese banquet with the Xuhui District Governmetn of Shanghai and Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle and his trade delegation. Would have been a total pain in the ass but I got to sit with two guys from Harley Davidson AsiaPac business development for lunch.

I think I might have talked them into doing a publicity motorcycle trip to Tibet.

With me. :wink:

85

Nope. You got it right. For those interested in actual facts purchasers of new Harleys in 2003 had a median age of around 46 and a median income in excess of $80,000. (cite)

86

If the OP is referring to the remark by Coldfire in Cerri’s link, then I must have missed the “bashing” part. Seems to me like good-natured ribbing. Not that Coldfire needs or wants me to speak for him.

As for the rest of the thread, I’m curious about why so many people are complaining about the noise of Harleys and not about the screaming, whining, giant bumblebee-in-a-tin-can (amplified a godzillian times) noise of so many Japanese bikes. I hear them all the time, howling through traffic with the engine redlined and sounding like fuel dragsters, and to me, that is far more annoying than the rumble of a Harley. Many bikes are noisy when ridden aggressively. Even then, the Harley thunders, which is less offensive and painful to my ears than the scream of a Japanese racing bike ridden hard.

I like pretty much all motorcycles, and I’ve owned several Japanese bikes. (I am now the proud owner of a 125cc Korean-made scooter!) I’ve ridden Harleys, and if I had the money, I’d buy one. Not as fast as a Ducati? True, but I’m not in a hurry. Not as technologically advanced as the Japanese makes? True in some ways. But people have different ideas about what they think a motorcycle should be. Some of us like the design of Harleys, not to mention the weight, stability, feel, and even the sound. If you don’t like Harleys, don’t buy one.

87

Well, I’d have to guess that it’s because the high rev japanese bikes whine at speed.

Harleys potato-potato at idle. Which means that you can hear your neighbor’s running for hours in his driveway. And remember, there’s a group that feel that it’s safer if the world and dog can hear them… I remember a pit thread on the topic. So they actually get aftermarket louder mufflers.

88

I have to get ready for work, and I’ve run out of time to finish reading this thread.

Anyway… Most riders of Japanese bikes whom I’ve met don’t really give a rodent’s rectum about Harleys or Harley riders. On the other hand, many Harley riders I’ve talked to (without letting them know what kind of bike I ride) seem to get bent out of shape just because Japanese bikes exist. Yeah, I make Harley jokes; but I’m not serious. But I’ve met a lot of Harley riders who are serious about their hatred of Japanese motorcycles. (Hm. I guess I’d better not point out the Japanese carburettors or shocks on their rides…)

Re: JAP on licence plates
A few years ago in California (IIRC, the L.A. area) some people whose initials were R.A.P. and J.A.P. were forced to surrender their vanity plate because people found “RAPNJAP” offensive. It seems the offended ones thought it said “Rappin’ Jap”.

Okay, I’m outta time. But here’s the first link I found when I put rapnjap in Google.

89

Except that when you waltz into the Harley dealer expecting to pay $6500 plus tax and maybe a small $150 or so setup fee you get socked with an $850 setup fee (or freight and assembly they call it). So you’re looking at almost $8000 out the door. Your local dealer may vary.

Then again a basic 650cc beemer starts at >$8000.

BTW if you’re going to get a sporty you should check out the 1200 roadster - same weight as the 883, better brakes (2 discs up front), very slightly higher seat height, more power. More $$ too, but I’m just sayin’.

Come to think of it maybe you shouldn’t exactly waltz into the dealer. More like stride purposefully or something of that nature.

90

Bandanaman. Dude. Chill the fuck out. If your ego is this closely related to your motorcycle (of whatever ilk), you’ve got bigger problems than some Dutch guy joking about Harleys on a message board.

Yeah, I make Harley jokes. And I don’t mind to get some jokes about Japanese bikes in return. Thing is, there seems to be more ammo for Harley jokes than there is for Japanese bikes. They’re overpriced, less reliable, and don’t like corners very much. Now, I realise that there are plenty of bikers who’ll take that in stride, and that’s all fine and dandy. Doesn’t mean I can’t make fun of them, though. :slight_smile:

My first-hand experience with Harleys is admittedly fairly limited. I rented a Sportster 883 for 2 days in California about 2 years ago. Hated it. It was completely stock, and had about 6K miles on the clock - a fairly new bike (it was a 2001 model, and I rented it in late 2001). Now, it is entirely possible that this was a rental that was just ridden hard, but it looked and felt quite well maintained. The brakes were scarily bad. Now, I’m not used to some sort of ABS-equiped superbike or something. I ride a Yamaha Diversion 600, known in the US as the Seca II. Mine’s a 1995, and has a single brake disk on each end. Not a tarmac curler at any rate. But it stops a HELL of a lot better than the 2001 almost-new-Sportster I was on. Also, the bike had to be convinced to negotiate a corner. I’m used to bikes that drop into a bend as soon as you turn the handlebars: with the Sportster, I had to wrestle the thing down lest I leave the curve on the outside. It just wanted to go straight, and upright. Boring as hell. It makes a lot of noise, with stock pipes even. But this noise is just that - there’s no real performance forthcoming. Any 250 CC standard Japanese bike will ride circles around it. The sound of the engine and the exhausts is pretty, though. And I have no reason to assume the bike was poorly made: it felt and rode solidly. It’s just not for me, and as far as objective criticism goes: those brakes are downright dangerous.

I also rode a Softtail for a few kilometers some months ago. It was fairly stock, apart form the loud pipes and I think a custom handle bar setup. Horrible. See comments above, and add incredible noise and significantly uncomfortable riding position. Yes, even for 5 km’s.

Now all of that is just my opinion, and any Harley rider is free to disregard it as EuroTrash elitism, pro-Jap propaganda, or whatever. They won’t convince me Harleys are “fun”, and I probably won’t convince them a Japanese bike is entertaining.

I’ll continue to wave at any rider coming my way, be they on a Harley, a Duc or a Japanese bike. Hell, I’ll even wave at GoldWings, even though it’s pretty much a guarantee that the wave will be unreciprocated.

I love bikes, like people that are passionate about theirs (even if it’s a Harley), but if there’s one thing I hate it’s people who take themselves or their bikes too seriously. Of course I get to bash your oil leaking behemoth, and you get to bash my blender on wheels. It’s part of the ritual. Deal.

91

Damn Coldfire, thanks for reminding me to re read the OP. I had been lulled by Bandanaman’s subsequent reasonableness into forgetting the OP.

(bolding, mine)

Shit, I have to ask. What is a “real biker”? I also have to laugh when some one can use the phrase “jap crap” and in the very same sentence tell someone to "keep your biased opinions to “yerself”. Not to mention the “dickweed” and “you can’t afford one” comments in a thread complaining about alleged personal attacks.

Another thing, I have mentioned that I have ridden with a couple clubs, not as a prospect, never wore “colors” but had alot of friends that I suspect Bandanaman would consider “real bikers”. The thing that always struck me as silly was not the debate about which bike was better, but the fact that they all seemed to think the simple fact that riding a scooter somehow makes you a better person. I ride because I enjoy it, I have no irrational belief that riding a bike, be it Ducati or Harley somehow makes me a better man.

PS Coldfire, I was riding all over Europe in 87’, 88’ and 89’, any chance we may have met somewhere?

92

Never heard of that one. I was thinking of the guy who wanted “JAP JUNK”.

93

Despite this claim, your observations are pretty much spot-on for most of their models.

I was fortunate enough to get to test-ride darn near every new bike from the 5 major brands, plus some BMWs and Triumphs, offered for sale between 1990 and 1998. Often times I would get new units, trade-ins or demo units for the weekend. Also, I’ve ridden countless used, customer’s Harleys that came in for service (the service tech had a DUI conviction and the owner would not let him ride customers bikes for liability reasons. I had to be the “Guinea Pig”.) Admittedly, some of these were abused by the owners, but I threw a leg over quite a few newish units that were there for minor service and had no “problems”.

You pretty much described most of them. Even the V-Rod, which is by far the best Harley I’ve ever ridden, was cobby and crude compared to most any other new bike. It was fairly powerful and things sorta worked like they should, but still had glaring faults that could not be overlooked. The transmission, like darn near every other Harley I’ve ridden sounds/feels like a metal toolbox being thrown down a flight of stairs.

For the record, I have no problem with anyone who rides a Harley, but the bikes themselves are sub-standard and overpriced.

“But I’ll always regret that Rwandan thing.” --Bill Clinton

94

Having tried out an 883 and a Sportster(laughable term for that machine) I think the only reasons why anyone would actually wish to possess one is that they had one left in a will, or they have far too much money, too little sense of practicality, a narcissitic sense of self worth and a need to belong to a group with a siege mentality that is constantly on the defensive about their strange choice of a machine that was outperformed in every measurable term possible at least 20 years ago.

Why do they not have adjustable span levers on the clutch and front brake ?

Why is the back wheel such a pain to take out when you want to replace the tyre ?.. and a worse pain to put back in ?

As for needing to look upon any new Harley as the start point from which a passable machine might be constructed , this is true… show me a standard one.

The differance between a Harley and pretty much any other machine is that those changes adress some fairly serious shortcomings especially the brakes and whilst not compulsory I doubt that any Harley owner would even think twice about their necessity.
One other machines you can make tweaks to every area, but you start with a machine that is reasonably capable in all departments and is suited for its intended role already.

I was curious to see a V-rod when they first came out and went down to the Harley dealer in the nearby city.
I pulled up on my Honda CB750 in my regular bike commuting apparel, walked in to look around.
The staff were friendly enough, but there were quite a few customers in looking around, especially at the new arrival.
I was surprised with the disdain with which I was treated, crowding me out from looking, standing right in my view of the machines, deliberately and the good old favourite of pushind to get around when there was plenty of space.

To a person this bunch of age 40 something dicksplats were dressed in barely broken in soft leather, unarmoured tassled jackets with one or two leather waistcoats. I was surprised to notice that all these ‘bikers’ wore demin jeans rather than something more sensibly protective.
There was not a great deal of evidence of ‘outlaws’, just a bunch of folk who seemed to need to herd against someone dressed in well used motorcycle commuter gear.

It’s the same on the road too, Harley riders simply will not even acknowledge a person riding any other machine, and the worst ones are the Harley clubs which are populated by empty nesters who use the Harley as an illustration of a ‘lifestyle’ they would have observers be impressed with.

I’ve stopped to help out anyone on two wheels, wether it has an engine or not.
having done this once with a matching his’n’ hers Harley couple and been firmly rebuffed in a most disdainful manner, I’m not sure I’ll bother trying to assist any other Harley rider.

There are Japanese bikes that are poor, not so many these days, but I don’t make a judgement call on such folk, they ride what they ride but Harley riders I’ve come into contact with have such a visceral dislkie of those who ride Japanese machines I wonder if they have some sort of insecurity issue.

I would not wish to ride a Harley, even if it were competant enough to meet my criteria, because I would not wish to pick up the attitude that so many Harley riders seem to have, and I would not wish to be associated with folk who have that attitude either

95

Maybe it’s different over the pond, but here, the attitude thing isn’t as severe as you’ve described. Like I said, there are a LOT of Harley weenies here too, but that doesn’t mean that owning a Harley means you gotta get in with that crowd and act like a prick. I just don’t see the elitist attitude that much anymore. You can sorta pick out the Harley riders who have one because they want a nice accessory to go with their leather boutique clothes, and the Harley riders who put big miles (and do most of their own work) on their bikes, and in general, are just basically good motorcycle people.

As for the bikes themselves, they’re fine. No, they’re not as technologically advanced and refined as many German and Japanese bikes are, but they are great bikes for long-haul riding and touring, and many think they look great. Sportsters have been redesigned for 2004 and they now are a heckuva lot better than they used to be, and the price ain’t bad. I’ve never owned a Sportster, but my ex had one in '96, and the times I rode it made me want to get back on my Road King pretty quickly. It definitely was primitive.

Gimme a 2005 or 2006 BMW R1200GS with Jesse panniers, and I’ll be very happy. Until then, I’ll keep riding my relatively-quiet Harley and enjoying it.

Sorry - I know this is the Pit, and I shoulda spewed at someone. I’ll try harder next time.

96

Thats what YOU would think. Of course, you don’t have clue.

Its not a paint to do either.

The brakes on harleys are just fine, and have been since the early eighties.

Harleys are very well suited for their inteded role.

I wear jeans. Most people who ride everyday rather than just go playing on the weekends wear jeans, at least around here. I’ve laid a bike down at highwayspeeds wearing jeans berfore, Didnt even eat through them. I do wear a leather jacket during the winter, but in texas wearing full leathers in the summer is a invitation for heat stroke.

Every harley rider I know waves to other bikes, no matter what the club. Truth is, I see 10 times the bike bigotry like you tend to display coming from japanese and euro riders. Most Harleyr riders (except for the squids), don’t really put down jap bike that much.

I do the same, I’ve had harley riders help me out when I was riding brit and italian, and I’ve help euro & japanese out before as well. Nobody ever said shit either way.

You have a worse attitude there sparky.

97

I was 14 in 1987, and didn’t get my motorbike license until 2001. So, chances are slim. :slight_smile:

bdgr, I can see how you would take issue with some of what casdave wrote (he’s certainly opinionated, albeit by experience, or so it seems), but the complaints about the brakes are not made up out of thin air. You can pick up any bike mag with a Harley road test and find the same information. Even the V-Rod’s brakes got a bit of a rubbing when Top Gear’s Tiff Needell gave it a go, and he loved the bike otherwise. I have no idea how crap Harley brakes must have been before the early 80’s, but the ones I’ve experienced (including those on a meticulously maintained 2002 Softtail) were utter shite compared to the stoppers on even an entry level Japanese bike with single discs. Some things might be subjective, but the complaints about Harley brakes being too weak for the mass they’re trying to stop are all too real.

98

Well…I disagree. Compared to other bikes in their weight class, they do well. You can compare an 800 pound glide to trying to stop your seca. But compared to say a gold wing, they stop just as good or better. Apples to apples.

I hate bike brand biggotry…with a passion. The club I ride around with (an American chapter of 59 club), we have people with all sorts of bikes. Every bike brand has something going for it, and every bike brand has its drawbacks. And every bike brand has built a total piece of crap at some point. The worst bike I ever worked on was a honda interceptor, but that dosn’t mean that I bash honda’s or honda riders. Honda makes some damn fine bikes, and I know some damn fine people that ride them.

99

Not all Harleys. The touring models all have dual disks up front that give you plenty of stopping power, plus the single disk in the rear. I don’t think they’re 4-piston calipers (2 I think) but they work fine.

I also find it amusing that people whine about underpowered bikes, whether Harleys or other bikes, as though they have some kinda keen insight into riding. Most any bike has plenty of speed, acceleration, and power for riding public roads.

I know a superbike privateer racer that each year places in the top 15 in the Daytona 200 superbike race. That’s no easy feat. I mean, the guy’s raced and ridden bikes for probably 35 years and is one of the most experienced racers in the country. He rides a lot on the street too. He always would tell me that if you wanted to go fast, you should get your ass to a closed-course track and knock yourself out, because that public roads weren’t the place to be pushing the envelope unless you’re trying to be an organ donor.

I guess your average keyboard-hugging fuckwad-on-the-street who went to the store and bought a race replica knows better, right? Uh-huh.

100

I’m sorry, but that’s plain bullshit. An 800 pound Glide should stop just as quickly as my 450 pound Yamaha. And the reason for this is simple: whether you’re on a big Harley, a GoldWing, a lightweight racer, or a dirt bike, we all face the same dangers on the road, and we all need stopping power when push comes to shove. Weight is never an excuse - if a bike is heavy, the brakes need to be of proportional size and capability.

My 1200 kilogram car can stop from 100 km/h in about 39 meters, which is above average for its class. Do you honestly think Mercedes could get away with fitting dodgy brakes on their 2500 kilogram S600, making its stopping distance some 50 meters? Of course not. In reality, the Mercedes stops even quicker than my car, which is good, cause I’d rather have a 1200 kg Citroën ramming me than a 2500 kg Mercedes, if it’s all the same to you.

Bottom line: a bike needs to have good brakes, nay, GREAT brakes, because without any further protection, they alone and your own judgment keep you from killing yourself. There’s no excusing weight factor. Bikes that take longer to stop are more dangerous bikes. Period.

Are there any tests online about stopping distances? I’m rather curious about your claim that a Glide would stop as quickly or better than a GoldWing.

booka: that last paragraph of yours better not be directed to me, dammit.