Harley bashing & Coldfire

The BBQ Pit
141

Well…I’m heading out of town for the weekend, so Wont be replies from me for a few days. Enjoyed it Coldfire. Glad that Seca is working out for you. Ride safe.

And since this is the pit, Casdave, You continue to believe what you want…its obivous you have some sort of irrational hatred for the brand…Maybe your significant other left you for a harley rider…maybe you always wanted one and couldnt afford it. I dont know, but go ahead and wallow in ignorance if it will make you feel better.
See ya’ll on monday.

142

I’ve never ridden a motorbike before. Can somebody tell me why I read this whole thread with interest? Why is the open road now calling me?

143

If it’s too hot for gear, it’s too hot to be out riding.

Glad to know theres a label for me. “Wanna be racer.” I thought my label was more along the lines of “Practicer of Common Sense and Safety and Trackday Racer.” I’ll take the minor discomfort of being hot while cruising the twisties as opposed to having the road rash scrubbed out of my back and legs. Whats wrong with racers anyway? I happen to like knowing how to handle my R6 at speed and getting input and tips from other riders on the track. Guess there’s something wrong with improving your skill. Maybe I should just buy a Harley and ride in a straight line all day long.

144

When you find out can you explain it to me? What I’ve gotten oy of it is the realization that I may never afford a real motorcycle so now I’m shopping eBay for a motor I can strap on my bicycle. As a concept it has the worst of both worlds, being slow and extremely dweebish but rather dangerous*, there being several reasons (brakes and frame strength, for instance) why motorcycle manufacturers mostly stopped doing this a century ago. It must be that call of the open road, coupled with an understanding that if I have a motor I’m a little less likely to keel over dead while a climbing one of the hills between work and home.

    • Though not in the same class as bdgr’s brakeless trip. Having been a a Dopefest or two, can I assume that liquor was involved in the decision-making process? :eek: Because that one is a real dopeslap, “what the fuck were you thinking?” one.
145

See, if you knock the Harley bike for not being capable in some aspects compared to other machines, Harley riders are so embedded in their ‘lifestyle’ that almost any commment along these lines turns into a personal insult and tirade in their eyes.

So it is not possible to make constructive criticism, as they wind their machines into a (wide) circle and shoot away with their defensive comments.

Harleys are slow unless modified - can’t say that as Harley riders get upset.

Harleys do not handle well due to their geometry, weight and shape - can’t say that as Harley riders get upset.

Harleys do not brake as well as other machines(my view is that the braking is diabolical but let that slip for now) - can’t say that as Harely riders get upset.

Harleys have only recently become reliable in the way Japanese bikes are, prior to the last maybe five to ten years the best way of keeping them going was to be religious with maintenance and if you were fortunate maybe the electrics would not let you down.

Harleys are expensive and yet you will exceedingly rarely see an unmodified one on the roads, and those modifications go some way to adressing the inherant problems of thases machines - can’t say that…
Japanese bikes are more reliable, work better in every department, cost less and the the rest of the world knows it, which is why they buy them by the truckload.
The poor farmer in a mariginal economy will not be buying Harley, nope, check it out, what you see is usually a small dependable machine, normally less than 125cc and always based on a Japanese design.

Yet the Harley rider wil denigrate the Japanese bike calling it a ‘ricer’, but Japense machines are the most prized and important posessions for tens of millions of poor folk around the globe.

Harley riders cannot get the concept of owning a machine that it capable, and suggest those who ride them are ‘wannabee’ racers, that good machinery should be confined to the track, it appears a goodly number of Harley riders want us all to go back to riding machines that were built 40 years ago.

146

Because at speed you can’t hear the bikers bickering ? :smiley:

Accepting a little good-natured ribbing regarding your choice of bike is part of the deal, and while HD riders perhaps do get more than their part of the flak, quite a few of them are ready to dish it out as well. Which is fine and as it should be, what else would we do when we cannot ride ?

As it happens, I’m in the “everyday rider who bloody well does wear full leathers, full-face helmet and back protector” category, and there has to be damn good reasons for me to compromise on that.

A hospital visit with a fellow rider who wore jeans the day he and his bike slid their separate paths down the highway was enough to make me sit up and listen. Especially after he told of the stiff brushes used to get the gravel out out of his abrasions. Ouch. The interesting bit was that he wore a (motorcycle) leather jacket and full-face helmet, and while both were scraped all to hell, they certainly did the job. He would’ve quite literally walked away from that crash if he’d worn the leather pants instead. (That same incident also definitively sold me on full-face helmets. The thing was gouged on the front.)

Incidentally, never show someone post-drop photos of their bike when they’re recovering from a crash. It does not cheer them up one single bit.

147

Hardcore! Live the dream of freedom man!

148

casdave: One thing to remember is that Harley Davidsons are quintessentially American. They’re big, they’re loud, and they’re built (and handle :wink: ) like trucks. Harleys are American Icons. In many people minds if you bash a Harley, you’re bashing America. To these people, buying a Japanese bike is a slap in the face to America and Real Patriotic Americans. That’s why they get offended when you point out their rides’ deficiencies (or that their carburettors are made by Keihin and their shocks are by Showa).

Oh – here’s a cite for the Japanese parts:

But back to bashing Japanese bikes. I have yet to run across a Harley driver who has a problem with Triumphs, BMWs, or Moto Guzzis; nor with Nortons, BSAs or other classic European bikes. I’ve heard of at least one rider who initially disliked a Ducati because he thought it was Japanese. So my impression is that the jingoistic Harley drivers who use phrases like “Jap crap” and “rice burner” (as opposed to the ones who don’t care what someone rides) just hate Japanese bikes.

Why is that? Are they racists? I don’t think so. IMO, these people look back at the 1970s when Japanese automobile makers gained a much larger market share here. I was too young to drive when the “Japanese Invasion” took place, but I remember the squeals coming from Detroit. The Japanese simply made more efficient cars than they did, and they were of higher quality. The market – American car buyers – exercised its Freedom of Choice to buy the vehicles the best suited their needs. The loss of sales to the Japanese was a severe blow to Detroit, and there were a lot of hard feelings – especially by auto workers who lost their jobs.

And remember: Harley-Davidson went through its AMF period. I think that AMF is responsible for much of the leaky/poorly-made/POS-bike reputation that people here are talking about. Sales fell, as high-quality Japanese bikes flooded the market. It was only the high tarriffs imposed by the U.S. government on Japanese motorcycle imports that saved Harley-Davidson.

As I said, H-D are an American icon. H-D symbolizes Freedom. (Easy Rider, living the wild life, shovin’ it to The Man, smoke that J, bro’!) Gasoline is no longer 30 cents per gallon. Housing is more expensive and needs to be paid for. “Good lord, I have a family now!” (Well, not me; but you know what I mean.) So people long for a simpler time when they could just get on their bike and ride away from their troubles. “Remember when bikes were slow, and you would just cruise along? When you didn’t have to remove all that plastic just to change a spark plug?” Nostalgia, man. It appeals to a lot of people. And when people see the world pass them by, it makes them uncomfortable. Other people embrace changes. There’s bound to be friction between the two camps.

The Royal Enfield Bullet is still being made in India.

When I think about Japanese bike-bashing Harley drivers, I think of Devo:

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom from choice
Is what you want

149

In this age of cross national company owenrship, its not just the big multinationals that have had to up their game.

Harley owners might look to patriotism, but somehow forget that Ducati is now American owned.

Ducati used to have a reputation for geat beauty and design, but for reliability definately not.

Ducati never really had the money to invest, and it would be fair to say that it appeared to be a company of enthusiastic amateurs.

US investment has changed many things, the new management team has come in and put right some of the most basic flaws (such as single phase alternators and snapping engine studs) and improved reliability and quality beyond recognition.
It also appears to me from where I am that Ducati still has that enthusiast streak that keeps great design and the balls to take a chance, which is pretty much what the Multistrada is.

Now this is what I call positive American, and to me its everything that Harley has failed to do until very recently.
Ducati have designed sports tourers and urban street bikes - right outside its usual race fare, it took chances and is doing well, Harley has only just started to change with its V-Rod, but the typical Harley owner just does not see this, instead wishing to cloing on to a past an an image.

To many Harley owners the V-Rod is not their idea of a Harley.

True that Harley is very profitable, but they could become so much more if their market would move with them.
It’s their stick in the mud owners that Harley has to please, but if you look at the Harley demographic, the company just has to move on to survive, it has to innovate and take a chance or three, will the next generation of non-Vietnam vets etc want to keep buying the current Harley ?

Maybe, maybe not, not easy to call, Harley designers have about taken the air-cooled large capacity, V-twin pushrod engine as far as they can in the current frame and style, it is now reasonably reliable and things like main engine casting are not the crude agricultural affairs that prevailed through much of the 1980’s(when compared to the Japanese sophisitication)

In my mind, Harley would like to move on, the Buell is a great example, but ultimately the Harley owner is both the saving grace and the curse of the Harley design team.

If Harley is to keep the Japanese machine at bay, it would be better surely to take them on and compete in that market, its the failure of US companies to do this that led to car companies coming under such pressure.

This the Harley owner does not seem to see, insisting that everything have a particualr shape, that lessons cannnot be learned from the Japanese, that such machines should be denigrated and that this is patriotic.

150

You haven’t lived until you’ve scrambled along a eleven or twelve tenths just to keep up with traffic. Every ride’s an adventure. Big bikes are for pussies. :wink:

Then again, the dealer had a new Ducati 800 Monster and a new Triumph Bonneville for about the same price as that Sporty and I fit on them real well. And casdave, I didn’t know about Ducati’s new owners until I was at the dealership. Interesting. The Bonnie seemed better for a rookie like me but the Duck with bars that were just a scosh higher to take some weight off my wrists…

151

Every time I go on a motorcycle ride, the only, repeat only kind of motorcycle that breaks down and causes the whole thing to come to a stop is a Harley. The fifteen year old Japanese bikes are more reliable, and Honda makes most of their bikes in America anyway. Someone I worked with once had a Harley and we had to take the speedometer off. On the back of the speedo it said Made In Japan. I don’t dislike Harley Davidson riders. For the most part they don’t care what I ride. The ones who think their motorcycle is the only “real” motorcycle however are silly.

152

Ahh, pure bliss. 200 clicks of riding on country roads, on an early spring afternoon and evening, with a bite of fish in between. Splendid!

I love my Divvy, but I’m getting too familiar with it. It never surprises me anymore. That’s a good thing, because I bought it as a beginners bike - it’s ultimately predictable and very forgiving. The VW Golf of motorbikes, if you will. Plus, the Divvy’s actually kinda small for me (1.86 m./6’2"), and I tend to slouch on it, causing back pains. I need something bigger.

And at one of our stops today, there she was again. A Yamaha FJR-1300. Damn, few things make me as greedy as that bike. I passed two Ferrari 360 Modenas on the road today, and whilst that is obviously a splendid car, I hardly look twice at those when I’m riding. A bike is always superior to a box, even if it has a horse on the bonnet. :smiley:

But an FJR? Oh man. I want one so bad I can taste it. 145 break horse power with a dry weight of 250 kilograms. Roar. :slight_smile:
Shaft drive, good ergonomics, sportsbike specs and touring bike comfort. And apparently, surprisingly fun in the twisties. I think I’ll go rent one for a weekend, and see how it suits me. Even though that probably means I’ll end up buying it. :smiley:

Ah, and I would also need a house with a garage, as an FJR is uninsurable in downtown Amsterdam if it isn’t stored behind locked doors. But that’s a small price to pay, I’d say. :slight_smile:

Waved at everyone today, and as per usual, the non-wavers rode choppers. Granted, not just Harleys. I guess it’s scary to take your hand of the grips when your hands are positioned higher than your head, or something. :wink:

153

Oh, drop: Monsters are great lookers, although of course the usual cautions about maintenance apply. They’re quite good these days, but they’re not Japanese. It won’t be a cheap bike to maintain, but they’re tons of fun, and their sound will make women melt. Men, too.

I’d recommend a 600 over a bigger version though, as a starter bike.

154

Coldie: If I hadn’t had my heart set on the YZF-R1, I would have bought the FJR1300. Beautiful bike, great performance, and more comfortable than the R1.

155

Hell, yeah! It’s just that they had this 800 just sitting there, looking all slutty in solid black!

I live in an odd place for a Merkin. Sure, we have the usual assortment of bike dealerships around but the close one, the one in apparently usefully short walking distance is a Ducati/Triumph/MV Agusta (no, even I know better than that, but damn do they look sweet!) dealer so Ducks and Turnips are as common as Toyotas. Good thing they’re so handy, too, because they even melt my wife, a woman not prone to impracticalities. Used to just be the Bonnevilles cuz they look and sound so good (salesman: “They changed the crank on the other models and now they just sound Japanese, but the Bonnie still sounds like it should. And it’ll still beat about any Harley on the road.”) but she has added Ducatis to her Approved List.

But I wasn’t (entirely) joking about motorizing my bicycle. See, while it’s thought of as flat around here it isn’t Netherlands flat and since I weigh at least twice as much as you the ability to (literally) survive hills and assurance that I could still make it home if I overdid it would mean I rode more while the illegality of motorized vehicles most of the places I ride (and the short range of electrics) would force me to pedal.

156

Some of us ride all year round, I’ve ridden in sleet, and I’ve ridden in 120 degree heat.

If your on the track, then your not a wanna be anything. I"m talking about people who buy all the race gear, and the race bike, just to look the part, and never ride further than outside their neighborhood on a pretty day.

Doesnt sound you you fit the label.

157

I wish I could claim drunkeness…but I don’t drink. Just plain stupidity and pride.

158

When you spread false information and lies, and then apply blanket judgements to people because of their choice of motorcyles, your an ignorant bigot. I would have called you on your bullshit when I was a eurorider, and I’m not gonna it slide now.

It is if its accurate, but you wouldnt understand that.

Are slow compared to what? Yes, compared to a Ducati, they are slow. Compared to a goldwing they are not.

Because its not true. SOme of their handling characteristics are quite good…And compared to goldwings they handle like a dream.

Only when its false

Harleys have been very reliable since 1984 or so. Thats 20 years moron, not five to ten.

Most modicications done to harleys are asthetic.

Japanese bikes are not more reliable, nor do the work better in every department. They do cast less, and the trade off is longevity. Harleys are always rebuildable. Its a trade off, and for some people a good one. Nothing wrong with that. But you cant understand how some people have differant wants and expectations, so you spread a bunch of lies and hate.

Which was it…You lost your significant other to a harley rider? Or You always wanted one and couldn’t afford one.

The only one in this thread denigrating other peoples bikes is you BIGOT.
I like Japanese bikes, and I have nothing against them.

Bigotry again. I never said that. Japanese sport bikes are good machines, and many people ride them daily and I ride with them often. Most of them have the sense not to bake themselves alive in leathers in a Texas summer.

159

My shocks are made by Gabrial…I wish I had Showa’s though…I plan on getting some Progressives if I ever get a job again.

I’d rather we didn’t.

Well…A big part of it is that Japanese bikes were designed to run a long time and then be disposed of. Nothing wrong with that, in fact its much more practical for most people. But when you have a culture built around your motorcycle, the idea of a disposable motorcycle is offensive…Not to me, but thats a lot of peoples reasoning.

Very true.

Except most of the bike bashing is Japanese riders bashing harleys.

160

I would take a Triumph over a sportster or a ducati. Damn fine motorcycle.