I am afraid that it was you who came up with the concept that “loud bikes are safer”, thus, it is you that needs to back that up with a cite/stats, not me to disprove it. And i am not dissing all harley riders, just those who have modified their bikes to be louder.
Since all the govt experts & professional motorcycle riders think helemets are safer, your supposition here, again would neeed some stats.
No, you are the one who came up with Jap bikes are safer. The government and many profesional riders do not say helmets are safer. The people who sell helmets say they are safer. You need stats as much as I would. It wont prove anything, though, because there are such a wide variety of opinions and statistics out there, this argument is like so many un-winable arguments. The only point I am trying to make is that The reason I, and most harley riders make their bikes loud, and go without helmets is because in our opinion, it is safer. You are the one who made the Ridiculous and insulting statement that It was to annoy people. The heart of this argument is motive, not even which is safer. Common sense will tell you that people being able to hear you, and tell where you are, makes you safer. But that is not the issue. YOUR supposition that our motivation is to annoy people, you cant back up with stats because there are none. You called me a liar when I said I run load pipes for saftey. Prove that I lied, and am just trying to annoy people. Even, if I was mistaken, and loud pipes weren’t safer, you would still be wrong, because my perception that they are safer is the reason I run them. YOu stated that bikers are opposed to helmets because they are not concerned with safety. I do not wear a helmet because in my opinion it is unsafe. If I am wrong, and they are safe, that does not change the fact that I, and most of the people I know, don’t wear one because we percieve them to be dangerous. Again you are wrong either way. You stated an opinion based on your assumptions of other peoples motives, when you know nothing about them. You were mistaken.
:rolleyes:
I certainly don’t want to contribute to this heading towards the pit but I’d have to say that at the very least bdgr has provided anecdotal evidence to back up his claim that loud pipes help keep him safe. I ride a Japanese bike that is actually fairly load, although not as loud as a stock Harley and I do the same engine rev and clutch thing that he does to warn cars of my presence. The horn just won’t cut it. There is a widely held belief that loud bikes are safer bikes and now there are two people saying it is their experience that this has been true for them.
So Daniel, do you have any evidence at all, even anecdotal that because my bike is Japanese that it is safer than bdgr’s Harley?
btw - I am thinking about getting a new scoot and really like BMWs, but I have decided that they are too damn quiet.
Try a Moto Guzzi with open pipes, just be sure to rejet the carbs. I can promise you they will know you are there, my old Guzzi was louder than my harley-any harley. I owned a BMW, they are great bikes, but your right, just too quiet. I had to sell it.
In Daniels defense, he did provide us with that really cool smiley rolling its eyes at me. Damn near convinced me, that did.
This noise as safety thing all sounds kinda irrelevant to me, but I’m not as into the bike scene as I once was. I do know that none of the motorcycle owners I know go out of their way to make their bikes louder. Off the top of my head that includes a half-dozen long-time Harley riders, one who rides a chopped Harley trike, and several ricers. All of them realize that they are less visible and take sensible precautions on the road–like paying attention to traffic, using signals, and avoiding other vehicles’ blind spots.
As for the stereotyping in Cecil’s column, so what? Hell, I’ve been around Harley riders much of my life, and I think “Hell’s Angels, the Harley logo, and the word hog.” I realize there’s more to it than that, but where’s the problem here?
Pepperlandgirl, where did Cecil say anything about criminals?
jumblemind, why is it ignorant to associate images with symbols? I mean, geez . . if I said “when I think of Harley I think of tattooed thugs knifing concert-goers” I’d certainly be exhibiting ignorance. But how are the associations Cecil mentioned ignorant?
Just wanted to add that I once camped at the KOA in the Badlands as well. It has the only few trees anywhere in the vicinity. My parents usually avoid KOA’s, but this actually turned out to be a good choice. There was some interesting restaurant nearby as well, IIRC.
I did not say that imported bikes were safer than Harleys, i said that they were safer OR AS SAFE AS. bdgr said that as harleys are louder, they are safer. I asked him to support his statement. He is making the unusual claim, I am willing to accept they are equally safe, (in this case, by “safe” we mean are less likely to be hit by cars, as they are louder), but as they are clearly louder, and he states this loudness is a safety factor, he needs to back this up. I have never heard this statement before, nor has there been any articles on this subject in anything the NHSI has done, as far as I can find, nor anything in consumer reports, nor car& driver.
I don’t care if you come up with THREE people with stories or theories, you need a cite. You have not come up with a cite.
Actually, his claim was only about the motivations of those who make their bikes louder. They believe that it makes them safer. It need not be true that it actually does make the bikes safer, just that people who do it are doing it because they believe it does, not just to be assholes.
You said . “Riceburners’ are no-where near as loud as harleys, especially those harleys modified for double or triple the noise, and they appear to have a better safety record”
Unsual claim? You can buy T shirts with loud pipes save lives printed on them, its hardly a new idea. But once again you have missed the point entirely. waterj2 is right, You starting this by talking about the motives of bikers, “make thier bikes louder just to anoy the pedestrians”. I offered you some insight into why we really do it. You called me a liar. EVEN if comon sense is wrong and it doesnt make us safer, thats still why we do it. I cant give you any cites, can you give me any that say we do it to annoy pedestrians? of course not, because no one to my knowledge has done a study on either one. They don’t need to. It is so obvious there is no need. Motorcycle riders get hit a lot of the time because car drivers dont know they are there. They are more likely to know they are there if they can hear them. Anyone can figure that out.
You’re both right to a degree.
Daniel is right that bdgr has not proven Harley’s (or other louder motorcycles) are safer.
bdgr is correct that his point was that riders believe they are safer, and that is their motivation, not just to be annoying.
Can we all agree that it isn’t proven that louder bikes are safer, but it is believed by riders to be so, and that is a strong motivation for them?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden *
"Riceburners’ are no-where near as loud as harleys, especially those harleys modified for double or triple the noise, and they appear to have a better safety record, at least as far as car-bike accidents go, or if not higher, then no sig diff.
[QUOTE]
Note, I said, if not higher, then no sig diff, ie “riceburners” are “safer than, or as safe as” the admittedly louder harleys. I have said that they may very well be AS safe. You say harleys are “safer”. Prove it.
However, we are now doing this debate in Great Debates, where it belongs.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden *
**
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden *
"Riceburners’ are no-where near as loud as harleys, especially those harleys modified for double or triple the noise, and they appear to have a better safety record, at least as far as car-bike accidents go, or if not higher, then no sig diff.
I didnt say harleys are safer. I said that the reason that I run load pipes is because I believe it to be safer. I believe it was safer when I ran open pipes on my BSA, my Triumph, my Moto Guzzi, its not just a harley issue. Prove that that I run open pipes for any other reason. You are the one making the unfounded accusations here. You started it. You prove it. You can’t. YOU made broad, bigoted insulting statement about a group of people that you obviously know absolutely nothing about, then when confronted with a differant point of view start demanding that I prove you wrong. You made the Original staement, that Bikers" are NOT “nice, misunderstood people”. …most of them go out and spend extra money to make their motorcycle extra (and illegally) loud. On purpose. For no other reason that to “piss off the pedestrians”., you have absolutely nothing to base this on but your own predjudice against a subculture that you don’t understand and dont want to understand. It is up to YOU to prove that we "go out and spend extra money to make their motorcycle extra (and illegally) loud. On purpose. For no other reason that to “piss off the pedestrians”., that is what this argument is about. Nothing else. Among the “not nice people” I hang around, you dont call someone a liar without having some proof to back it up. You cant back it up, so all you can do is put up cute smileys, and try to change the subject to whether or not they really are safer. If I think that wearing a chicken suit makes me safer, and I wear a chicken suit, that is why I wear a chicken suit. It doesnt matter if the idea is idiotic, that point is that it is my motivation for doing so. And if you say that I wear a chicken suit to piss off people who don’t like feathers, it would not be my responseability to prove you wrong. Why is this such a dificult concept for you to grasp? I have read some of your other posts, you seem like an inteligent person.
As **** has kindly pointed out, there is currently a thread in the «Great Debates» forum discussing motorcycle issues. I’m sure my colleagues David B and Gaudere will be delighted to referee this dicussion over there.
Please check out this thread:
The Great Motorcycle Debate
Since I’ve seen such harsh language in this thread as “bigoted”, “piss”, “chicken suit”, “cute smileys” :eek:, “annoying”, “liar”, “prove it”, “assholes”, “hell”, “sensible precautions”, “open pipes” and “the pit”, I will be closing this thread. Please try to be nice to each other in this forum.
moderator, «Comments on Cecil’s Columns»