I think the only way Harry will ever accept that Snape is not evil will be because there are further stored Dumbledore memories that Harry will have access to. Apparently these memories are not destroyed after the death of the source, since the sources of some of the ones Dumbledore shows Harry are known to be dead. Could be memories from someone else, but my guess is that the memories will be Dumbledore’s. I also think this will be the way Harry confirms a UV between Lily and Snape: Dumbledore was the Bonder and he saved these memories.
For that matter, Dumbledore could have left Harry a gazillion important and instructive memories as a legacy, only that hasn’t been revealed yet (or the disposition of anything else Dumbledore might have left in a will…I’ll bet there will be a few handy items on that list)
I’ve been thinking a bit and reading a number of threads here and elsewhere and have put together a list of things that seem to make the most sense to me. YMMV, of course:
(1) In the chapter where Snape enters the unbreakable vow, he sends Wormtail to get a specific bottle of wine and the agreement is sealed only after Narcissa and Bellatrix drink the wine. Several folks guess that this disguises a potion that gives Snape an out from the vow - - something like liquid crossed fingers, if you will. Props to a previous poster in this thread for this idea.
(2) If we’re right about Regulus, it stands to follow (thanks, GraphicsGal)that Kreacher would have been the logical helper. How did the potion get returned to the basin though?
(3) Dumbledore has an ironclad reason to trust Snape, such as an unbreakable vow.
(4) That Harry’s home was in Godric’s (as in Gryffindor) Hollow will be significant.
(5) Dumbledore has very cleverly faked his own death so as to draw out Voldemort and lull him into a false sense of security. The only-mostly-dead-Dumbledore will work behind the scenes but not reveal himself until after Harry and Co. defeat Voldemort. His portrait in the office is a red herring.
(6) Snape could have seized Harry and taken him to Voldemort, but instead used their last interaction to protect Harry from the other Death Eaters as well as coach him on occlumancy and non-verbal spell casting.
(7) Harry cannot be a horcrux. Voldemort has tried to kill him in books 1, 4, and possibly 5. That Harry saw through the eyes of Nagini in OotP is significant, though, and evidence that Nagini is the 6th Horcrux.
If I “stole” your idea and didn’t credit you appropriately, I’m sorry, and please let us know it was you. There’s not really time to go through the whole thread.
(And on preview, the idea of a set of Dumbledore memory vials is interesting.)
I think further evidence for the Harry as horcrux theory is the scene where he sees Dean and Ginny kissing.
p286, American edition
Now, that could just be normal jealousy, but the extreme description reminded me of the anger Tom Riddle seemed to have over what he perceived as injustices toward him. I was seriously afraid Harry was going to do something nigh unforgiveable at that moment.
Heck if I know. How does love keep someone from being killed? How does murder fragment the soul? Does it re-knit over time? Voldie’s committed other murders besides the ones for the Horcruxes, right? Can one really just kill someone, and on a whim, instantaneously stash a bit of soul?
If Harry is a Horcrux, Dumbledore would have to be a dumbass not to know it. He’s privy to practically everything the reader knows and then some - if it’s reasonable for us to conclude it, it’s more than reasonable for him to be certain, one way or the other.
If Harry is a Horcrux and Dumbledore knows it, then Dumbledore’s a liar, because of his promise for full disclosure to Harry. A liar and a manipulator - it may be in Harry’s best interests - but I think it’s more likely in the best interests of defeating Voldie.
And whatever the case, Rowling could stand a little time at writer’s school.
That was me Ivorybill, but I’m not hypothesizing that it gave Snape an out. I’m not sure what the potion might have been for, but I think it’s clear the Vow worked as advertised. Actually, I think it’s more likely that it was some sort of trust/suggestibility potion designed to get Bellatrix to Bind him, because if Snape already knew about Draco’s assignment and had told Dumbledore, they might have known to expect this from Narcissa, and already be laying plans. Again, I think the key point here is that keeping Dumbledore alive was not the goal – keeping Harry alive and Draco from becoming a murderer clearly were the priority.
I guess I’m the only one who really dislikes the idea of Harry being descended from any of the Hogwarts founders. With the exception of certain special magical abilities having genetic components, Rowling has been hammering home, since Book Two, the idea that blood doesn’t matter. Even the one instance where it was supposed to matter – Slytherin’s construction of the Chamber of Secrets for his heirs - it turned out that blood did not matter as much as the ability to speak Parseltongue* (Harry can open it, too, and he’s unrelated). Hermione is the best witch around, and she’s totally muggle-born, and Lily was apparently also very powerful, and a muggle-born. And the same family that produced her also spawned Petunia. Sirius comes from a pureblood family of Dark Wizards and isn’t one. I think it’s been very explicit that blood does not matter; this is just a prejudice of some older wizard families – bigots, really. For the denouement of the series to require that Harry be an heir of Gryffindor then would be kind of shooting this theme in the foot. (I do, however, think it would be awesome if the Weasleys turned out to be descended from Gryffindor.)
As to Harry being a horcrux, I wonder if Harry was one, but has already been neutralized – at the end of Goblet of Fire. Voldemort has good reason not to explain to Wormtail or anyone else the situation with the horcruxes, but if he did make Harry one when the killing curse rebounded, accidentally, then the ceremony in the graveyard could have taken the soul piece back to strengthen Voldemort as well as restore his body. Afterwards, there’d be no reason to keep Harry alive, so Voldy wouldn’t mind killing him. And at that point, if I was Voldemort, I’d be especially interested to see the magical result of making a horcrux out of the soul split that came from killing one of your previous horcruxes.
*More on Parselmouths - and I think the bit where they all speak Parseltongue at House of Gaunt doesn’t necessarily imply this is a standard genetic marker of Slytherin’s heirs - sure it would pop up from time to time in the family, but Parseltongue must be a learnable language - after all, Dumbledore appears to understand it, and he presumably isn’t a Parselmouth. If crazy-brother-whose-name-I-can’t-remember is a natural Parselmouth and crazy enough that he doesn’t really speak anything else, it would only make sense for the rest of the family to speak it at home, whether they are natural Parselmouths or not. So I think this one, isolated branch with mental health problems (which can be genetic) just got in to the habit of speaking it, but that doens’t mean the whole family had the ability - it could just be picked up, as in bilingual families.
Thanks for clarifying. It’s a perceptive observation, regardless.
Good point. I don’t see this as entirely an issue of blood, though, but rather of courage. One reason we admire Neville is because he’s striving to step up and be more like his parents. Harry or the Weasleys having Gryffindor lineage would be less a “we’re good because we’re Gryffindors” but rather a “we have an awesome responsibility to live up to.” (aside: Wouldn’t the Weasleys already know if they were, though?)
If Regulus Black had been tasked by Voldemort with placing the Slytherin locket Horcrux into the cave, there would be no need to trouble with drinking the potion or replenishing the potion to retrieve it. He simply pockets the Horcrux, places the decoy with his little note into the potion, and heads back to Grimmauld Place to destroy the real thing.
BTW, up until this very moment, I was thinking that the picture on the jacket of the U.S. printing depicted Dumbledore and Harry at the Pensieve. But it’s really the potion bowl in the cave, isn’t it?
I would like to interject something here that will be viewed as a Hallmark moment of pure fodder.
Isn’t it wonderful in these turbulent times that so many like minded people can be interested and captivated by something like this and discuss all the different possibly theories and conclusions for a book and not get into a flame war!
There is something to be said for living in a Free Country and all that stuff so that the right can blame the Fall of Society as we Know It on JKR and go off on a burn burning spree. It is their right to be paranoid. And it is our right to read & have the freedom to discuss and say, " None of these stinkin’ spells work!"
That said, I blame the gay baby Libertarian whales for Voldemort’s return.
Thank you for allowing me the honor of killing this thread.
His emotions may have clouded him to not see Harry has a horcrux (because he didn’t want to believe it) or if he knew to not tell him (because he didn’t think Harry could take it at that time).
He’s recruited to Voldemort’s forces at a peculiarly young age.
His character exhibits internal struggle (whether or not to kill Dumbledore, we see him crying in the bathroom). The kid has two sides to him.
He’s the anti-Harry (even born around the same time). Harry is surrounded at birth and through his first year by love. Draco’s father is a Death Eater.
I cannot tell you all how much it means to me to be able to discuss the new book with a bunch of like minded people. I have always managed to have reader friends who NEVER read the same stuff I do, so I never have anyone with whom to discuss books I love. The discussion adds so much depth to an already fascinating series. Thanks you all!!
I agree! A couple of my friends haven’t gotten around to reading #6 yet. I’ve called them in spaztic glee when I finished wanting to discuss particulars…and they.are.not.in.it.yet.
If it were for this place, I am pretty sure I would have exploded from the sheer excitement.
This is an elegant idea, but I’m not sure Voldemort, who has no friends and I am willing to bet has never trusted anyone, would allow anyone to have anything to do with putting one of his horcruxes in a safe place. Any number of things could have happened between the creation of that horcrux and the time it was deposited in the basin.
And yeah, I decided that the basin on the cover has got to be to one in the cave, too…speaking of which, has anyone upthread mentioned the possibility that this basin-in-the-cave is a penseive as well? What would happen if someone drank the contents of Dumbledore’s penseive?
Hmm. That makes a lot of sense, except that once Voldemort discovered Reg’s disloyalty, wouldn’t he check on the state of the Horcrux? (Regulus died a year before Voldemort lost his body, so he would have had plenty of time to follow up.)
But perhaps Voldemort entrusted the task to Bellatrix and Regulus swapped the Horcrux for the decoy before she had a chance to leave it in the cave? She does say something about the Dark Lord having entrusted her with “his most precious” in Chapter Two…
