“Fred, George, Harry and Ron were the only ones who knew that the angel on top of the tree was actually a garden gnome that had bitten Fred on the ankle as he pulled up carrots for Christmas Dinner. Stupefied, painted gold, stuffed into a miniature tutu and with small wings guled to its back, it glowered down at them all, the ugliest angel Harry had ever seen, with a large bald head like a potato and rather hairy feet.”
Regulus Black is Sirius’ younger brother, who joined the Death Eaters, probably at their parents’ insistence, and later tried to back out. He was murdered by Voldemort (or one of his minions) in 1980.
About the Unbreakable Vow and is Snape really evil:
Maybe Snape is not evil and the reason Snape killed Dumbledore was because he was doing it to protect Draco like the vow said he should. Dumbledore probably had some sort of idea that his time was almost up and maybe he had instructed Snape to look after his students and to keep them from harm, and so therefore technically sacraficed himself to show that Draco and Snape are actually decent people.
I hope that makes sense, it does to me but its 2.30am here and Ive been reading HBP since 7ish.
My burning question is about Snape, of course. At the end, McGonagall says that Dumbledore always hinted he had an “ironclad reason” to trust Snape, and Tonks says that she would love to know what Snape told Dumbledore to convince him.
Harry pops in with “I know” – that Snape told Dumbledore that he gave the (incomplete) prophesy to Voldemort, and that he’s sorry that James and Lily were killed.
How come no one says “Um, that’s far from an IRONCLAD reason for Dumbledore, or anyone else, to trust Snape!” That’s not even a weak reason. In fact, it’s more like an anecdote and not very much like any kind of reason at all. This left me very perplexed, because it doesn’t seem to clear up very much. The only possibility that I can see is that Snape is in fact still somehow fundamentally serving the Order and will ultimately double-cross the Death Eaters, and that the “ironclad reason” is yet to be revealed. I guess I kind of hate to think of Dumbledore going out on the basis of one very grave incorrect premise. There was something about this reminded me of Star Wars – Obi Wan letting Vader strike him down, presumbly allowing for Luke to go to redeem Vader in the end.
Overall, I really enjoyed the book. I also liked OotP, but I was glad that this book seemed to strike a better balance between the grim reality of doing battle with Voldemort, and the fun aspects of the wizarding world.
Oh, hey, I have another question. I always find it odd whenever someone mentions that Mr. and Mrs. Weasley weren’t involved with the first clash with Voldemort, the impression I get is that they would have too young at the time to be on the front lines along with James and Lily Potter. But how much younger can they be, if they have two adult children significantly older than Harry?
Fretful Porpentine,, I think you nailed it with Regulus Alphard Black.
I think you are right. I think the curse that injured Dumbledore’s hand should have killed him outright and was killing him slowly despite Snape’s potions.
Consider, Dumbledore and Snape knew Malfoy was ordered to kill Dumbledore which he didn’t have much of a real chance at doing but would likely would end with Dumbledore having to kill Malfoy. And Snape, by use of the unbreakable vow to help Malfoy and even do the job if Malfoy couldn’t, firmly established his allegiance to Voldemort.
I think Dumbledore put Snape up to killing him. This gets Malfoy and family off the hook and sets Snape up as a spy trusted by Voldemort.
The hints for this are the argument Snape and Dumbledore had. Snape was really protesting he couldn’t do what Dumbledore was asking. And when Dumbledore seemed to be pleading with Snape not to kill him, he was actually asking him to go through with it. The anger that was on Snape’s face was directed at himself for having to do it.
I don’t think any of them went to Hogwarts. They seemed pretty ignorant.
I think Dumbledore clearly sent for Snape to have Snape kill him. He is so insistent about it. Since we know a horcruxe takes a death, maybe this was the death? Is that why Dumbledore was so determined to get back to Hogwarts? But whether it is for Snape or Dumbledore, I don’t know. Snape did write in a book when young that is remniscent of Tom’s diary. Snape is more like a person whose soul is divided, maybe he has already done this.
Plus, why in the world would Snape agree to that unbreakable vow in the first place? Whatever does he owe the Malfoys? Has to be part of a Dumbledore plot.
Maybe Dumbledore knew all along that that particular horcruxe had been found and destroyed, that is why it was so important for him to understand if there were others. If there weren’t, then they could go after Voldemort. If there were, he needed to do this sacrifice. It makes sense that Sirius’s brother would come to Dumbledore, after all. It could also be that, when Voldemort came back, Dumbledore knew there had to be others, so he started the search again.
And, the idea that Harry is a horcruxe is cool, and scary. I just can’t see it feeling like a success if Harry ultimately dies, and yet, what other way could there be? And if Voldemort found out, he would want to keep Harry alive.
So, Book 7. I’m intrigued at the thought of what will happen when the protection Harry has from his aunt expires on his seventeenth birthday. Will it be an all out Let’s-Get-Harry attack from the Death Eaters? Or will they be more subtle? I’m assuming most of the action will be taking place at Number Twelve, Grimmaud Place, since it’s unplottable, but as I write that I realize that the Secret Keeper is now dead! Oh my gosh! Does that make it plottable now?
You know what I wonder? Is there any wizarding education past Hogwarts? Is there a small invisible magical annex to Oxford or Cambridge? It’s hard to see, say, Hermione, who’s Muggle-born and whose highly educated parents no doubt expected her to attend university, deciding that her education is done at age seventeen. She may be part of a different world now, but I could still see her going undercover as a Muggle just to continue her education at a university. And it would be hilarious if she took Ron along.
anu-la1979, should I take the movies off my Netflix queue? I’ve only seen the first one, ages ago. Would they interfere with my enjoyment of the books?
Anybody care to make a stab at the etymology of “horcrux”?
The “crux” part is easy: crucial, central, cross, etc.
From dictionary.com: (hope this quote isn’t long enough to get me in trouble)
The basic, central, or critical point or feature: the crux of the matter; the crux of an argument.
A puzzling or apparently insoluble problem.
But what about the “hor” part? “Horology” is the study of time, timekeeping, etc (which pretty much explains the work “horoscope,” I guess.) That doesn’t seem particularly germaine, unless the idea is that the horocrux is preserves the crucial or central part of someone over time. If that’s the idea, it seems a bit of a stretch.
Other stuff:
Is the name “Demelza” more common than I think, or is J.K. a “Poldark” fan? (I figured if the name “Angharad” showed up as well, my suspicion would be confirmed, but it did not.
Count me among the people who were appalled (in a good way) by Harry’s monologue while he was pouring that nasty stuff down Dumbledore’s gullett.
Count me among the people who were simultaneously annoyed, depressed and BORED by Dumbledore’s demise.
I was really hoping for a WHOLE lot more Neville in this one.
Re: the question somewhere above about lack of appearances by Charlie. I’ve been kind of assuming that he was going to turn up with Norbert at some point.
This seems to presuppose that the figures in the Wizard Cards and Portraits are kind of like ghosts in that they actually hold part of the soul in some fashion and keep the dead person from actually leaving. Based on a J.K.R. interview I read on another site (no, I can’t cite it, sorry) I was under the impression that portraits are only images (very active images, granted) or simulations of dead people, not actual remnants of the deceased. We’ve been given to believe that becoming a ghost is a sign of cowardice or timidity and that horcruxes are abominations. An actual LIVING portrait seems redolent of both things, and this very un-Dumbledorish. OTOH, I guess the portrait of Sirius’ dear old Mum in the Black ancestral home would have made a cracking good horcrux for Voldemort, though I suppose surviving behind the image of an old harridan wouldn’t be sufficiently grand to suit Voldemort’s ego.
The pace of the book was an improvement, but I’m thinking that we’re going to end up with either a 1500 page Book 8 or a boatload of annoying loose ends.
I don’t think they were too young, just that they were busy with two or three young children. Also I doubt Arthur was important enough for anyone to actively recruit.
I just can’t see Snape as being 100% on Voldemort’s side. I agree with everyone who thinks that Dumbledore and Snape had a prior agreement in which Snape would kill Dumbledore if he had too. That doesn’t jibe perfectly with Dumbledore’s pleading at the end, but perhaps Harry was wrong about the emotion displayed?
I liked this one much better than the previous book and better than Goblet of Fire too. It seemed to be better edited and Harry didn’t yell nearly as much. Although he did seem to be surprisingly calm after what happened in Order of the Phoenix.
This will probably seem rather silly but the thing that most surprised me was Lupin/Tonks. It just seemed like something out of fanfic. But it doesn’t bother me, I think it’s cute. Also does anyone think Fleur is too young to get married? She must be only 19 or 20. I don’t know how old Bill is. (I read in an interview with JKR that he is supposed to be two years older than Charlie who is two years older than Percy, making Bill 24, but I think that doesn’t correspond with dates mentioned in the books.)
What are some questions that still haven’t been answered yet?
The importance of Harry having his mother’s eyes. (Unless this was important in persuading er, whatshisname, the new Potions master, to give up the memory. But it can’t be just that, can it?)
What Harry’s parents did for a living?
That flash of triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes at the end of GoF.
The mirror Sirius gave Harry.
I’m sure there were more that I can’t recall right now.
I think the reason paintings of portraits, hold the souls of their subjects, at least at Hogwarts, is to keep an eye on the school. That way, the headmasters of the past can stay around and advise the current headmaster.
Oh, and does anyone else just love Phineas Nigellus? I know Sirius said he was Hogwarts’ most unpopular headmaster, but I love his droll sense of humor.
Crazy ass theory-
R.A.B was Regulas Black, who didn’t become a Death Eather until after drinking the potion. The potion destroyed what was good in him and brought him over to Voldemort’s side, though he retained enough of himself to eventually try to turn back, and got killed for his efforts.
Same thing would have happened to Dumbledore if he’d lived after drinking the potion. Dumbeldore realised this ( maybe that was the subject of the visions that made him scream and plead for death?), but could not overcome, weakened as he was by age and injury.
Now, I just have to work out how Snape would know that Dumbledore was doomed to become something evil, and was better off killed before the potion twisted him…
I don’t have much to say, as I’ve only read the book once, and was fuming over Dumbledore’s death when I closed the book. However, I begin to wonder if it actually is in perfect agreement with Dumbledore’s pleading at the end. I think it might have been that he was kind of reminding Snape of this agreement, if we assume for a moment that they had one.
I’m not sure, and I still don’t like it. However, it is a possiblity.
But somebody had spoken Snape’s name, quite softly.
“Severus…”
The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.
…
Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the hard lines of his face.
“Severus, please”
Ok, here’s my take.
Dumbledore made it quite clear several times that his life didn’t have as much value as Harrys. He also knew the layout of the cave. I suspect he knew what the potion was and what it would do. He also knew he needed a second party, and he needed Harry to understand more fully the nature of the prophecy. He put two and two together, told Snape what was happening with Malfoy and made him swear that if it came down to it, he would kill Dumbledore to keep the fight alive. Snape has a much larger role to play in all of this, I’m sure of it.
When Snape’s face it etched with “revulsion and hatred”, it’s not because he hates dumbledore, it’s because he sickened and furious at what he has to do.
I have a feeling Snape and Harry will wind up working together in the final book, and that is why this book was essentially named for him.
As for the reason Dumbledore is ironclad in his faith in Snape, I believe that will come in book 7
First of all, I do believe that this was my favorite of the books, no matter what you people say. It just felt…more right. The characters actually behaved like people in that they stayed true to their base while doing things that you couldn’t automatically predict of them.
The romance stuff was cute in my mind. It’s about time they started acting like teenagers, what with the hormones and such-like. Ginny started to gain a personality in OoP, but in this one she was actually likable.
And okay, I admit, I cried when Dumbledore died. I knew in advance it happened, thanks to a lackluster spoiler on LiveJournal. And I didn’t even like Dumbledore’s character all that much. But it still hit me; more than Cedric, more than Sirius. I really can’t explain why.
Awww… I thought I was the only person who thought it was Regulus! I guess that means we’re all brilliant, right? I liked this book and appreciated the succinct writing style yet it wasn’t as thrilling and dynamic as OotP. Plus, I have been a big proponent of the fanon that Sirius and Lupin were lovers.
This is the beginning of the end, isn’t it Harry isn’t going back to school, he’s going to hunt down the rest of the Horcruxes and kill Voldermort or die trying. Draco has escaped, and Snape being the HBP hit me out of left field. I was not expecting that one.
I think the fact that Dumbledore mentions at the beginning that 17 is the age of majority in the wizarding world is important. When book 7 starts Ron, Hermione, and Harry will be 17, and I think that means each of them will be considered an adult and their decisions will not be questioned.
I find it very sad. I enjoyed the orphan-at-a-wondrous-school story, and now that’s over, and JKR is taking the plot into a different direction.
Not your usual children’s series, is it? I half-expected Dumbledore to come back to life. I’ve watched too many Disney movies, I suppose.
I have a question for UK Dopers: What’s a trainer? I think that’s a type of shoe, but I was confused when Harry was packing his “trainers” and thinking he couldn’t ride a two-wheeled bike.
Why would Dumbledore paralyze Harry at the top of the tower? Was it to keep Harry there as a witness to what happened to him, or to protect him from the Death Eaters?
I liked this book and appreciated the succinct writing style yet it wasn’t as thrilling and dynamic as OotP. Plus, I have been a big proponent of the fanon that Sirius and Lupin were lovers.