Um, when that happens the current YG will be what we call “older”. As hard as it is to believe, they will grow up.
Some do wish to form a global Islamic caliphate. You might not consider that to be “destruction”, but if not, then you shouldn’t worry about the Christian right taking over the US government. That wouldn’t, by your reckoning, be destruction either.
That might be so, Lib.
But Al-Qaeda, as far as they have an official goal (which I think is a smokescreen), wants the US out of the MENA. There are always some fringe lunatics that want to take over the world, and fringe lunatics might be the very definition of Jihadists.
It’s just that I’m so tired of the arguments: “They hate our way of life”, “They want to destroy our civilization,” which isn’t really true.
A lot of countriies in that part of the world have many internal problems: Corruption, dictatorships, keeping the public in check. It’s beneficial for the regimes to create an external enemy which the public can focus on and use that enemy as a scapegoat for everything that’s wrong in your country*. Many of the terrorists are state sponsored just because of this.
Saudi Arabia is slowly going bankrupt, in spite of their vast oil resources. Why did AQ originate there?
Just follow the money, not the faith.
- those so inclined can insert parallel to the US here.
You live in the only province in the dominion where drivers need a 4x4 because the roads aren’t paved.
And provincial income tax is artificially low because health care costs aren’t included, like they are in 8 other provinces.
Yeah I mean lets just leave the Middle East, I’m sure they’ll work it all out for themselves, with a gun pointed in their back by some radicalised Imam. Islamists hate our way of life, and its true. Do you think that if we gave up the regions potential tomorrow that they would stop there? When will you learn that appeasement of scumbags like OBL will never work in the long run, if ever.
Barbarian said:
You’re going to have to explain this. I’ve lived in several provinces, and travelled through more. I’ve never noticed Alberta having fewer paved roads than the others. Was that a joke?
I don’t understand this either. Could you explain?
RL: Yeah I mean lets just leave the Middle East, I’m sure they’ll work it all out for themselves
I don’t think The Gaspode was arguing that the US leaving the Middle East would solve all the problems there, nor even necessarily that it would be a good idea.
I think s/he was just pointing out that many Muslim terrorists do have some clear-cut political goals such as forcing the US to leave the Middle East, rather than just being stereotyped powder kegs of sheer irrational hatred of Western civilization.
RL: When will you learn that appeasement of scumbags like OBL will never work in the long run, if ever.
I don’t think anybody’s actually arguing in favor of appeasement of scumbags. But it’s worth noting that this “irrational hatred” “clash of civilizations” model pitting “us against the scumbags” is much too simplified. It omits a lot of factors, such as the tendency (that Gaspode noted) of regimes like Saudi Arabia, who are theoretically our allies, to support terrorism that distracts their radicals’ attention away from their own regime.
Thanks, Kimstu.
And yes, that’s what I’m saying. Point to me where I was advocating appeasement or that the US actually should get out of the region. You can’t, because I didn’t.
I do however think that blanket statements like “they hate our culture” is misleading and overly simplyfied. To deal with the problems that exist in MENA, one must go beyond these stereotypes.
Sigh… I’m so tired of belaboring the bleeding obvious, I don’t know if I can do it again without my head exploding, but…HOW IN HELL WAS LETTING BIN LADEN ESCAPE, THEN INVADING A COUNTRY THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11 THE “RIGHT THING”???!!!
Well, calms down and I’ll try and explain, though I’m not one who suppored the war in Iraq.
First off, you need to get off the meme that we ‘let Bin Laden escape’…unless you are talking about the Clinton administrations failure to wack the guy twice. I assume though you are talking about the standard Dem meme about Tora Bora and the fact that we didn’t send massive US forces there to stand shoulder to shoulder in some of the most desolate and hostile terrain on the globe to prevent him from slipping off, instead relying on ‘local mercenaries’ to do the heavy lifting in the area (while ignoring the fact we also had SF forces there).
I’m sorry, but reality has to rear its ugly head at some point on this thing. There was just no way we could have deployed sufficient force into that area on short enough notice to do any good. We did exactly what we should have done in this instance…i.e. we deployed light special forces units to coordinate with local troops (who were already there, knew the terrain, and weren’t part of OUR logistical tail). The administration hasn’t done a lot right (IMO)…this was one of the things they did.
As for Iraq, I’m no big fan. However, the reasoning (at least what I understand of it) isn’t that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, its that invading Iraq was part of the over all strategy for the ‘war on terror’. I.E. it was attacked for strategic reasons dealing with Saddams past behavior and potential future behavior with reguards to terrorism…and its strategic location in the ME. In addition, Saddam and Iraq conviently already had most of the making for the excuse to GO into Iraq…i.e. there were all those resolutions in place to give the US the fig leaf, there was the past history and the ground work had already been laid (to the American people anyway) that Saddam was a Bad Guy, and then Saddam was also his own worse enemy with all the retoric he was spewing and his stupidity in not backing down completely and throwing himself on the mercy of the UN and the EU.
While I personally think attacking Iraq was stupid for the US, its not like there are NO reasons or that its totally off the wall from a strategic perspective. Certainly not enough to make your head explode if you only don’t completely close up your mind.
-XT
Good thing you always tell us how non-partisan you are, xtisme - 'cuz it sure is hard to tell, the way repeat those tired old Clinton-bashing memes… :rolleyes:
The way you repeat them, that is.
I reckon about the time you learn that interference in the eternal squabbles among these people will never work — neither in the short nor the long term. Your first instinct was best: let’s just leave the Middle East.
IS it a meme blowero? I thought it was pretty well established fact that during the Clinton administration they had at least 2 chances to wack (or capture) the man and didn’t take them. There were REASONS they didn’t do it of course, but that doesn’t change the fact that they COULD have done so. Or am I totally wrong here and those two chance were fiction from the Pubs? If so, by all means fight my ignorance here. Contrary to your belief, I really do have an open mind.
BTW, I voted for Clinton the SECOND time. Just so you know.
-XT
I’d assume he’s talking about the health care premium. The roads thing I don’t get, though.
I do think Albertans take far too much credit for happening to live on top of oil. Someday it’s either going to run out, or demand will drop-off, and all these jobs, plus the giant service industry that depends on it, will disappear.
BTW, I’m not ‘non-partisan’…I’m simply non-partisan when it comes to general Republican vs Democrat BS. I’m quite partisan against Bush to be honest…I can’t stand the guy, especially as far as the whole Iraq war goes.
Even so, I at least TRY and look at things from both sides and make a clear judgment on things…instead of listen to talking points from EITHER side.
-XT
p.s. This might have been answered already in the thread (I didn’t see it)…WTF does ‘jumped the shark’ MEAN anyway?
*Has America jumped the shark?
Honestly now, everybody take a deep breath and reflect: a President who
Got us into what looks to be an endless war with an enemy that makes the Viet Cong look like a bunch of Franciscan monks, in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and had no WMD, *
Um no, so wrong on many counts. VN was truly nasty so much so that the Iraqi insurgents can only hope in their wildest dreams to come close to the VN. The whole world, including B Clinton, J. Kerry and that french guy said and knew Iraq had WMD, Iraq did have Al Quadia membership opperating w/i their boarders.
Failed to apprehend the real perp behind 9/11, and now freely admits he doesn’t even much care about him anymore,
If ‘he’ is now ineffective does it make sense to persue ‘him’? we have a global multinational war to fight, why waste resources.
Took the sympathy of the entire world, shat on it, and turned us into the pariah of the civilized world practically overnight,
Well no this one falls flat too. The ‘whole world’ as you say is an insult to the multi national effort to overthrow S.H…
Has a “spend-but-don’t-tax” fiscal policy that is sane only if your long-range goal is to “starve the beast”, i.e., bankrupt the federal government,
Somewhat agreeded, but I do think we are overtaxed which is slowing our progress.
*Savages the environment, lies like a rug, smirks, smears his opponents, jibbers, drools… *
Yea right, how 'bout an issue. W’s policies are a different apporach to such issues, but this doesn’t mean that they are ‘bad’ or ‘deceptive’.
THAT President is elected to another four-year term. And please, let’s not talk about whether 1% of the vote cast was futzed with here, or 1.5% there – the election should’ve been a LANDSLIDE for his opponent, if said opponent was Spongebob Squarepants!
Actually there was no opponent, The Constitution forbids a president who gave aid and comfort to the enemy, and 3rd party canidates are not a reality.
So, the question: did we jump the shark? Will we ever again be able to hold our head up in the Family of Nations, or have we proved once and for all that we forever belong at the childrens’ table… the sl-o-o-ow childrens’ table?
We have indeed jmped the shark, the same shark that have attacked so many nations and people. We are the first ones to acknowleage there is a shark, so many others have their head in the sand. If we are moved to the childrens table, it will become the table that most nations eventually will want to be a part of and come crawling to us to let them in.
Are you saying it would have been unconstitutional for John Kerry to have won the Presidency? :dubious:
It’s a pretty standard loonie-rightie fantasy that Kerry’s meetings with the Vietnamese delegation rose to the level of “insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies” of the U.S. under the 14th Amendment. They contend that Kerry’s oath when he became an officer in the Navy shoehorned him into the category of persons covered by that section 3. They like to ignore that there has been no finding by anyone anywhere that his meetings rose to that level, that the “oath” specifically referred to the oaths taken by civilians, and that the offices of President and Vice President are conspicuously and intentionally left off the list of offices unattainable by those of whom such a finding has been made.