Has any country that banned abortion ever given women equal rights?

I think Canada is the widest open. The only requirements are that the physician be trained in the procedure and the clinic meets the required standards for the procedure.

It is a first-world modern nation. On the face of it it has a liberal, left-leaning population with all the anti-discrimination legislation that you’d expect and yet the laws concerning abortion are at odds with elsewhere on the continent.
The same is true of Northern Ireland which, even though it is a totally separate state, has similar laws that stem from a shared social and religious history.

Yep, this, basically. There may be other Catholic countries with similar laws, but I don’t know of any. Ireland has modernised a great deal over the past 30 years, apart from abortion laws. It’s common for Irish (and Northern Irish) women to come to England to get abortions.

Moderator Note

This is essentially witnessing, which is only allowed in GD. Let’s refrain from such arguments in General Questions.

Let’s stick to the specific question in the OP. If you wish to discuss whether rights are “God-given” open a new thread in GD.

General Questions Moderator

Interesting call. I know next to nothing about rights in NK, but are you sure women and men have the same rights, whatever they may be, before the law?

Then let’s talk about the FACT that many, many, many people DO believe that. Let’s talk about the FACT that you absolutely cannot have a productive discussion by simply ignoring a common point of view.

Is discussion of cold, hard facts sufficient to satisfy you? Or is discussion of certain facts banned, simply because some people around here don’t like to acknowledge that many millions of people exist?

One can argue all day about the origin or even existence of fundamental rights, but all this thread is concerned with is legal rights, and those are in fact granted by governments.

OK, so suppose that Bob and Sue have a one-night-stand, after which they never have anything to do with each other. Sue gets pregnant, and nine months later, she has a baby. Is Bob entitled to parental leave, because he did after all just become a father? And how can we make the laws for him perfectly symmetric with the laws for Sue, given that it’s possible for Bob to become a parent without more than one night’s involvement, but it’s not possible for Sue?

I’m not here to discuss, or cuss, questions about the existence of any god or gods. I’m here to say in most societies, rights were routinely assigned only to a few people. Rights to property, inheritance, participation in government, choosing one’s own behavior, and a much longer list, were denied to most women, men, and children. Rather than something everybody starts with, rights have always been something granted, or allowed to people by the ones in charge.

We can talk about how some places have this and that right, and how long it’s been that way, but it didn’t start that way. No matter where you live, there are things you don’t have the right to do.

The law in its majestic equality forbids men as well as women from having abortions.

Moderator Note

If you are unable to distinguish fact from belief, I strongly urge you not to participate in threads involving religious beliefs in GQ. If you continue to engage in witnessing in the General Questions forum you will face official warnings and possibly a topic ban.

Perhaps you should stick to Great Debates, where witnessing is allowed.

Moderator Note

First, disputing moderation is only allowed in ATMB. To reiterate what engineer just told you, you have already be instructed to refrain from witnessing in GQ. If you continue to do so, you may be subject to warnings. If you wish to discuss your religious viewpoints, you may do so in GD.

General Questions Moderato

Officially, yes. Gender equality is a common principle for communist regimes so Kim Il Sung outlawed any form of gender discrimination way back in the forties. The current constitution guarantees equal rights for women.

Unofficially, nobody has a lot of real rights in North Korea. So it’s easy to deny women the same rights men are denied. And North Korea is so closed off, it’s virtually impossible to gather statistics about what’s really going on.

Well, I know you think this is true, but I was looking for something more than just your say-so. And just to be clear, I’m not suggesting that you are mistaken. I’m just trying to understand what your source for this claim is.

So, again, how do you know that women have equal rights to men? NK is not a country that is governed by the rule of law.

The idea is that people are treated equally by the law, not that laws for people in different situations be identical and “perfectly symmetric”, whatever that means.

Bob should be treated the same as anyone else who’s just become a parent without giving birth - something that’s not a gendered issue, as it could apply to Sue’s girlfriend Roberta, or Bob’s husband Billy.

Bob will have all the legal responsibilities of being a father - paying child support and the like - why should he be denied the legal benefits as well?

If they never have anything to do with each other again, Bob isn’t paying child support and has not recognized the child; he does not even know the child exists. He is not legally the child’s parent unless and until Sue succesfully sues for paternity or unless and until she communicates the arrival of the child and Bob recognizes said child.

But if he is in any way involved in the child’s life then yes, countries where child-is-here leave is parental leave (even if people may call it “maternity leave” when speaking English, regardless of the gender of the parents involved) give Bob the right to take leave during a period specified by said law. There are countries where said period reaches several years, for example Sweden. Other countries differentiate paternal leave and maternal leave, but there is a tendency for this differentiation to disappear.

Haven’t we gone rather off topic?

The correct answer to the OP is 'tell me what you mean by equal rights, and then I’ll tell you whether countries with abortion bans (absolute or conditional) have them or not."

I’m anxiously awaiting a criterion for what ‘equal rights’ means.

As far as I can tell Ireland exactly fits the OP’s criteria. Abortion is banned except in very rare medical cases to protect the mothers life. Ireland being in the EU is a party to the EU Charter of Fundamental rights which is pretty good on gender equality:


I’d also add Poland, Malta and Andorra to the list, again all EU nations that ban abortion:

Nitpick: “several years” is a bit of an exaggeration. Paid parental leave in Sweden covers a total of 480 days, 90 days of which are reserved for each parent respectively.

Yes, but they do not have to be taken concurrently, you can take them along several years in bouts. It’s to be used through the child’s first years, not just through their first 480 or less days of life.

Well, the argument is that since neither men nor women have any rights of any kind in North Korea, they are truly at the cutting edge of gender equality … and I mean “cutting edge” literally.

Well played, Little Nemo, well played …