Indeed, my hypothetical would start in the 1920’s with an American population believing we supported the wrong side in WWI, enter Hitler and maybe we’re thinking this is the guy we need to clean up Europe … it would have saved the invasion of American territory.
I take it you’re Canadian, then?
Well, it really seems that the Japanese invasion of the Aleutian islands was forgotten.
Sure, Alaska was not a state then, but the Alaska territory was already incorporated and considered American soil. It took some serious efforts to remove the Japanese from there.
Certainly Saddam Hussein posed a major threat to our freedom with all the weapons of mass destru…
Oh wait, nvm. We were spreading democracy, right?
Great response, much better than mine would have been.
I meant before that. Since the US only doing business with one side was in part what precipitated the German declaration of war.
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Well, except that we DID sell weapons and other material to Germany (and I think Italy as well, though not as sure about that) prior to us becoming fully involved in the war. We were essentially selling stuff to all sides at one point. The Germans, however, had placed the UK and later Russia under a blockade and started sinking US flagged shipping bound for either country which pretty cause the US to basically start a covert naval war with Germany. True, at THAT point the US had sort of kind of picked a side, though we didn’t start open hostilities with Germany until they formally declared war on us after Pearl Harbor. You make it sound as if the Germans had no choice but to sink US flagged shipping, and that they were justified in this, which is really glossing over the complexities of the situation and generally letting the Germans off the hook for their decisions. It’s more complex that ‘US got what it deserved for trading with the UK and Russia’.
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I’ll admit to overcompensating. Of course Germany bears most of the responsibility. But that’s my point : most. Not all. The DoW didn’t happen in a vacuum, that’s all. Much like Pearl Harbour did not happen *solely *because the Japanese government were a rack of asshats (that’s the proper collective noun, BTW :)).
The Imperial Japanese sent that force as a diversion, their real goal was elsewhere. But we knew that and met the IJN at Midway. We kinda let them have that Aleutian Island for the duration of much of the war. Kind of a pain to dislodge them and I suppose it tied up IJN resources to keep the troops supplied …
… but hostile foreign forces on American soil … JimSC has the right of it.
I don’t know how you can dispute that it’s arguable that Germany might have won the war. Even with events unfolding as they did, the war was never a slam dunk for the Allies. A significant change, like Russia remaining neutral, could have tilted the war in Germany’s favor. The resources that that would have saved Germany could then have been focused on Europe, and IMHO Hitler would have eventually revisited his plan to occupy England. So, I stand by my first statement: “It’s arguable that Germany might have won WWII if they had honored their pact with Russia, at least until they could occupy England.”
The reasons that the isolationists failed to keep the US out of the war are irrelevant to the speculation as to what would have happened had they not failed, such as Hitler progressing further with his domination of Europe. I never said that Hirohito was the equivalent of Hitler, but he did have plans to control the Pacific. And IF those conquests had been successful, Germany could have taken as much time as necessary to build up the forces required to move into South America, beginning with a small beachhead and expanding at their leisure. With the US remaining isolated, Russia remaining neutral, Europe under Nazi control, and Japan controlling the Pacific, who would have stopped them? And what part of Hitler’s history would suggest that he would have stopped short of world domination? So, I’ll stand by my second statement: “If isolationists in the US had been successful long enough for Hitler to secure Europe and Hirohito to control the Pacific, South America would almost certainly have been next on the list; then Central America, Mexico, Canada, then . . .”
That’s an interesting take on things that I’ve never considered. My initial reaction is that Hitler and the American people would never become BFF’s, but the concept of the US changing sides between WWI and WWII raises some interesting questions. Perhaps if Hitler was out of the picture. . . Patton supposedly wanted to re-arm the Germans and chase the Russians back to Moscow.
Not quite,
Incidentally, when something is a diversion the hostile forces do usually retreat after the main objective is taken.
Dammit, my computer ate my first response. Try II.
In any sort of alt-hist scenario, unless you accept magic or break the laws of nature there are things which not possible. What you are proposing falls under this, at which point, I get to have aliens help me out.
Let’s go through your alt-his and count up the number of big-M Miracles which would be required.
First, any scenario which doesn’t have Hitler attacking the USSR is Miracle I. The entire point of the war for Adolf was to create lebensraum in the East for the master race. He had been stating this for pretty much his entire political career. His plan was the slaughter the Slaves and seize their land.
It doesn’t matter how many divisions the Germany minus Hitler had, they couldn’t cross the channel. Operation Sea Lion would have required complete control of the air and the sea, something the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe were unable to provide in 1940 or after, even with Miracle I. To invade England, you need to defeat the RN and RAF, something which was impossible in any realistic scenario. So, let’s get rid of them, give you a magical navy and burn another miracle. Miracle II is now used to put a bunch of German troops on British soil.
Look at the difficulties the Allies had in Normandy with two years of planning the the resources of the US. For German troops to defeating the British is going to require Miracle III.
No. See above. They could not have occupied English without burning up two Miracles.
Since we’re not talking about anything remotely realistic, then why not. Except you have to undo the 1938 Two-Ocean Act which authorized $8.5 billion dollars for the following
that requires Miracle IV
You are using Hirohito as a shortcut for the delusional Imperial Japanese armed forces, but you can’t. There are scores of works dedicated to the degree of responsibility Hirohito had, but they would all agree that he did not personally envision even regional domination. His was not the leading role.
the IJA was mired in the quagmire of China and did not have the manpower, the resources or logistics to conquer and hold the Pacific. They could not have done any better than real history and to undo the events which brought them to there requires Miracle V.
My aliens. You get five Miracles, so I get one.
But Hitler is already gone or not Hitler because of your Miracle I. You don’t get to play both sides of that.
My aliens are stronger. You lose.
If a miracle would have been required for Hitler to have not violated the pact with Russia, perhaps you can explain the miracle that allowed the pact to be signed in the first place.
Stalin did ban miracles. 
Yes, it was no miracle, Stalin and the soviets did suspect (and the Book from Hitler was more than a clue) that Germany was going to eventually invade Russia, Germany in turn wanted to prevent a 2 front war and so that “miracle” you talk about here was a treaty made for convenience to both nations.
Stalin expected that the clearly coming war of Germany with the western powers was going to weaken Germany, he was sadly mistaken when Germany defeated France and almost all the western powers in the west so quickly. By 1940 Hitler confided to his generals that it was going to be the Russian’s turn next, by then the treaty’s usefulness was considered spent by Germany.
This. Germany was not ready to attack the USSR in 1939 and in fact had to throw everything they had at Poland. They were still gearing up for total war. They needed to keep the Soviets at peace while they took the initial grab into Poland, and hence the agreement which they entered in bad faith.
Both sides mistrusted each other, and for good reason. Not only were the Germans already planning on not only attacking the east, but annihilating the Slavs, but Stalin would have broken the pact and taken on Germany at some point.
I used big-M “Miracles” to describe events which were completely impossible considering the parties, the time, their forces and capabilities. It actually should be many more, but I got bored.
Well, I’m not bored, WWII is one of favorite historical subjects, but shouldn’t it be “Allies” instead of “Aliens” the ones that won? (Although I do think that there are a few conspiracy minded folks that do think that aliens did it for the allies)
Anyhow, nice list of miracles that the axis needed to win.
All aid provided the UK and Russia was legal under US law, and since Germany and Japan were in serial violation of international law they had no right to insist anyone else abide by it.
This is a falsification of history. Such literal false-flag operations did not take place. They would have caused a political uproar in the US if they had taken place and would have provided no safety for any ship approaching the British Isles.
The Axis* were* ravenous barbarians, and you would do well not to confuse the ravenous with those who were trying to keep the ravenous with taking over half the world, and then possibly the other half.
This is nonsense. American ships were forbidden to enter war zones and the UK, pitifully, was forced into a cash-and-carry situation until Lend Lease overturned at least the cash part.
You might say we played a game of bait-and-wait and did a damn good job of it.
Although it was a great tactical success Pearl Harbor was a strategic irrationality of the highest order since it was certain to make a fighting enemy of the strongest country in the world, which might not have entered the war otherwise. IMO once the US was allied with the UK it was bound to keep the UK afloat by shore to shore US flag operation if necessary, so war with Germany was inevitable.
Eric Foner has an excellent book, The Story of American Freedom, which analyses how the concept of “freedom” has shifted from the colonial period through the nineteenth century. In short, Americans have always struggled with varying, competing definitions of “freedom.”
Expansionism to the west, for instance, motivated the American Revolution (1763 Royal Proclamation line), 1812 (Associated Indian Wars), the Texas Revolution and Mexican War, and even the Civil War, which had roots in the contest over western territories. For many individual Americans, each of these expansions offered an opportunity to acquire land, economic independence, full citizenship, and therefore a stake in American freedom. Defeat in any of those conflicts imperiled those opportunities for freedom.
No, I was talking “aliens.” If one can propose that level of absurdity as a possible scenario, there really isn’t any way to argue with them, so just go straight to using aliens and beat them at their own game.
It couldn’t be “Allies” because there weren’t any left. Russia remained neutral, despite Germany demolishing England, (Miracle VI), or Germany beat her after defeating the British first. (Either way, Miracle VI because for Germany to beat the English then rebuild faster than the Soviets would take a Big-M Miracle. There may have been ways for the Axis to have defeated the Soviets, but given this playbook, no way.)
Getting Germany to South America would in and of itself require a merchant shipping fleet which Germany lacked. So build one while you are busy depopulating England of her men and the Slavs of everyone. (Miracle VII)
The true level of absurdity is to assume that the US would remain isolationist this far, which is going to require another Miracle, or rather two since it’s so crazy. (Miracle VIII & Miracle IX)
Germany ain’t going to be able to occupy South America, Central America and Canada. They simply didn’t have the troops unless all these places simply rolled over, accepted their overlords and didn’t need an occupying army. I’m not even going to attempt to count the number of Miracles that would require.
Then they show up at the border of the US, which has totally disarmed itself, blew up her own industrial might (which was three times Germany at the outbreak of the war), and rolled over. That’s how Germany could win.
But I get my Aliens to save the day.
The War on Christmas.
The OP asked about wars that were fought to protect our freedom. A question was raised regarding the inclusion of WWII in this category. Watchwolf49 and I were discussing the impact that treaties (real or speculative) could have had, and I postulated that the outcome of the war might have been altered had Germany not violated the pact with Russia when they did. Apparently this deeply offended TokyoBayer, so he/she launched into a tirade about the impossibility of Hitler varying from the actions he is known to have taken. This is tantamount to TokyoBayer claiming perfect knowledge of Hitler’s thoughts and motivations.
I don’t wish to debate all the details of any alternative history, because we simply do not know how things would have turned out. It is possible that Hitler could have delayed Russia and the US entering the war, maybe even for years, and this could have resulted in a significant swing in the balance of power. We can’t know if Germany’s research in aerial weaponry might have seen a sudden breakthrough, allowing near total destruction of the UK. Crossing the channel would then have been just a boat ride. We can’t know if Germany might have developed the first atomic bomb. Talk about a game changer. My point is, we can disagree about the specifics, but no one has perfect knowledge of alternate outcomes, and to claim otherwise is bordering on magical thinking. Earlier in this thread I made the assertion, “Trusting the Axis Powers to honor any peace agreement would have been foolhardy.” And I asked, “. . . what part of Hitler’s history would suggest that he would have stopped short of world domination?” It was not necessary to drill down into the details of tertiary time lines to debate this issue.
And that brings us back to the OP; the US didn’t have perfect knowledge of what the Axis Powers were going to do or what their capabilities were. Therefore, it was necessary to fight WWII in defense of our freedom, because relying on treaties and trusting the Axis Powers were not reasonable ventures.