It’s one of the most common examples of logic that proves to you your value judgements aren’t on firm ground.
I sort of agree with Alex. The targets they picked were symbolic - symbols of American military and economic influence in the world. They were making a political statement. If they really wanted to scare the shit out of us and cause damage, they’d do something like (being vague, don’t want to do any terrorist brainstorming) mess with something like our water supply.
Was the lack of follow up attacks after 9/11 an indication that we crippled their ability to strike? Maybe. I’m not so sure. You can terrorize with very little infrastructure - two dudes with a rifle in DC terrorized an entire region for weeks (with the gleeful help of the media). If they were interested in waging a prolonged, generalized terror campaign it seems like they could’ve continued.
Actually, an even better analogy would be for the parents to burst into an entirely different school and beat dozens of kids with baseball bats. Then set the school on fire, and loot its operating funds. Our actions have been grossly disproportionate, self serving and mostly misdirected.
We captured the people involved and put them in prison. And we did try to get Osama bin Laden before 9-11, until Bush took office and called the hunt off.
I doubt that he and his buddies were anything but overjoyed by 9-11. They saw it as a chance to push their agenda, and probably outright gloated over the deaths of New Yorkers. Who are, after all, evil liberals and therefore enemies of God; I doubt Bush and friends would have been anything but happy if NY had been outright nuked into a crater. They aren’t “real Americans” after all.
Vague statements, check, ad homs, check, ignoring points made that are inconvenient to your theories, check. Yep, I’ve seen this behavior before.
It was but not because of Saddam having any specific relevance to the actual 9/11 strikes. A message had to be sent to the middle east and the rest of the world in general that attacking the USA directly was breaking the rules, and that there would be consequences.
It just happened that Iraq was coming up on the end of the sanctions imposed after the 91 kuwait invasion and Saddam was openly signing contracts and doing deals for when the sanctions would end. Getting the UN to continue with the sanctions was not going to happen , so he basically was railroaded in the end, had there been no WMD program to use as a pretext , it would have been something else.
Afganistan was the law and order response for those directly responsible for the planning , but Iraq was the geo-political response that gave other countries notice that they could be displaced and regime changed in short order.
Had there actually been a smoking gun, where a country had been found to be complicit in the airstrikes on the pentagon, the towers et al, I would not have been surprised if they were nuked. The casualties from the airstrikes were on the lower end of a WMD event, that brings that option into play.
Declan
Oh, please. Saddam was an ENEMY of Al Qaeda. The message that was sent was that there’s no point in not threatening the US, because we just don’t care. The war on Iraq was about grabbing Iraq, Christian crusading, and the chance to kill some random foreigners for fun and ego gratification.
Yes; regardless of what they did or did not do. The Iraq war was the proof that America is a mad dog of a nation.
Considering that we’ve killed far more people in Iraq, does that mean it’s OK if some other country nukes us in response ?
:dubious: The “X is worse than Y, so stop worrying so much about Y if you’re not planning to worry about X” analysis casts out many a fallacy in our framework of values. Fallacies which are so abundand that you’d rather think the argument itself is flawed.
You’re totally forgetting raising the price of oil and giving defense contractors business. Ie, feeding the same industries that the president and vice president, respectively, were parts of.
I don’t know if that’s in reference to my comment. Just in case the way that I see it is “Y is worse than X. Why is Y worse than X?”. All the letters of the alphabet can be as bad as each other. It’s people’s perception that varies. Your point of view - it seems - X attacked Y, Y has a right to kick the frak out of X. Rather than, X attacked Y, why?. Maybe it was becasue Y kept attacking X, in X’s view. I believe both sides are purely too judgemental in this case.
GOD… my silly XYZ argument reminds me of… “Why was 6 affraid?” Becasue 7, 8, 9.
I really dont recall saying any different, you just reworded it
That you bother at your peril, dont worry Der, Johnny foreigner got the message loud and clear
How many were actually killed in Iraq obviously does not mean anything to anyone else , since no one is taking pot shots at the USA with nukes. Um , you might have a point in theory but the rest of the world got the message, why dont you just leave it at that.
Or some countries could be glassed to get your theory some more practice.
Declan
That America is willing to attack nations at random ? That there’s no point in trying to make peace with America because we’ll attack you anyway ? Yeah, they got that message.
They weren’t throwing nukes at us before either. And the message that they got ? It’s that we are evil, insane, or both.
And then America is ruined as the entire world embargoes us. And Americans unfortunate to be overseas at the time get torn to pieces by mobs. But hey, at least we proved that we are bigger thugs than anyone else !
Your last point is interesting cause thats what the French President Franscois Mitterand was whining about when it came to that issue. Specifically calling the US a hyperpower because no matter how resolute you want to be in the UN with sanctions, there is always going to be countries that deal with the USA.
You have to change that dynamic before you get what you want.
Declan
And guess what ? “Glassing” countries like you want would do that just fine.
lol , seems to me Der that to get what you want , you would probably want to advocate this option at every oppurtunity then.
Declan
Define motivated? Here’s a list of terrorist attacks (Middle East terrorist, so no isolated or IRA type attacks, even though they are no less violent) against US soil, citizens, interests and allies. It is not exhaustive and does not include war related attacks (ie, no Afghanistan/Iraq).
1992
Argentina: Israeli Embassy bombing by “Islamic Jihad” in Buenos Aires, Argentina; 29 killed, 242 injured
1993
United States: January 25: Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters, killing two and injuring three others.
Unite States: World Trade Center bombing kills six and injures over 1000 people, by coalition of five groups: Jamaat Al-Fuqra’/Gamaat Islamiya/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/National Islamic Front
United States: Failed New York City landmark bomb plot,
1994
United Kingdom: Israeli Embassy Attack in London and a Jewish charity are car-bombed, wounding 20. Attributed to Hezbollah.
1995
Riyadh: Bombing of OPM-SANG building in Riyadh kills seven; five of them Americans and two of them Indians.
1996
Saudi Arabia: Khobar Towers bombing – In all, 19 U.S. servicemen and one Saudi were killed and 372 wounded, by Hizballah Al-Hijaz (Saudi Hizballah) with Iranian support,
1997
United States: Ali Abu Kamal opens fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claims this was a punishment attack against the “enemies of Palestine”.
1998
Tanzania, Kenya United States, August 7: U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000, by al-Qaeda
1999
United States: Ahmed Ressam is arrested on the United States-Canada border in Port Angeles, Washington; he confessed to planning to bomb the Los Angeles International Airport as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
2000
Aden A small boat that was helping the US Navy destroyer, USS Cole to moor, exploded as the USS Cole was in the Yemen port of Aden for refueling. Members of al-Qaeda, led by Osama Bin Laden, was behind the attack.
2001
United States: Attacks kill 2,997 immediately, and many more later from exposure to toxic dust in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into U.S. landmarks.
United States, Anthrax attacks on the offices the United States Congress and New York State Government offices, and on employees of television networks and tabloids.
2003
Turkey: Al-Queda truck bombs go off at two synagogues, the British Consulate, and the HSBC Bank in Istanbul, killing 57 and wounding 700 in the 2003 Istanbul Bombings.
2004
Madrid. 191 people were killed and over 600 others were wounded when ten bombs detonated in Madrid on the train line. The Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigade claimed responsibility on behalf of Al Qaeda.
Jeddah Five Saudi militants attacked the US consulate in the Saudi port city of Jeddah. A Saudi group linked to Al-Qaeda, calling itself Qaeda al Jihad in the Arabian Peninsula, claimed responsibility for the attack on several Islamic websites.
2005
United Kingdom: London bombings – Bombs explode on one double-decker bus and three London Underground trains, killing 56 people and injuring over 700, occurring on the first day of the 31st G8 Conference.
United Kingdom: Attempted London bombings - Small explosions in three London Underground stations and one double-decker bus. These four bombs were designed to cause as much damage as the 7 July 2005 London bombings, but the explosives had deteriorated and failed to detonate.
2006
United States: Federal Agents disrupt Derrick Shareef’s attack on an Illinois shopping mall planned for December 22nd. His intent was to commit “violent jihad” just before Christmas
United Kingdom, United States: A major anti-terrorist operation by British Police disrupts an alleged bomb plot targeting multiple airplanes bound for the United States flying through Heathrow Airport, near London.
Germany: Two suitcase bombs are discovered in trains near the German towns of Dortmund and Koblenz, undetonated due to an assembly error. Bombs left by Youssef al-Hajdib and Jihad Hamad. Originally planned to coincide with the 2006 Football World Cup in Germany.
2007
Germany: Three men are arrested and more are being sought on suspicion of planning attacks (potentially much larger than the London or Madrid bombings) on the Frankfurt International Airport, the U.S. military base in Ramstein, and pubs and schools frequented by Americans. Llikely Al Qaeda ties.
Netherlands: Eight men with alleged links to leading senior Al Qaeda terrorists are arrested, the country’s intelligence service said, claiming to have thwarted a bomb plot.
Hard to parse, as usual, but are you saying we should basically only worry about heart disease and cancer, because nothing else comes close to killing as many people as those?
And FTR I do “worry” about those more common causes of death: I eat a varied diet, exercise, don’t smoke, wear my seatbelt, don’t cheat on my wife, etc.
:rolleyes: Oh, please. Has it occurred to you that perhaps I have scruples against committing genocide by “glassing” countries ? Unlike you, apparently.
I wasnt commenting on your scruples der, only that the result you want is best achieved by glassing a bunch of innocent countries.
Declan
Since part of what I want is for countries NOT to be laid waste, no it’s not.
Dude, your high maitenance , do you realize that.
Declan