Is this an example of the “one true Scotsman” argument?
Every example of a person who was predominantly heterosexual in behavior, and then switched to homosex, is interpreted as a person who was “really” gay all along (OJ Simpson’s father, I recently learned, left OJ’s mother and turned gay).
My take on it is that sexual orientation is set sometime in early childhood as a form of imprinting. This basic orientation is either/or, but extreme social pressure (men in prison, married gays) can cause the person to choose one form of behavior or another.
I doubt if anyone is born gay, nor do I believe we are all basically bisexual. Nor do I believe one can change the basic either/or orientation. You can talk yourself into things if you want to hard enough, sometimes, which is part of what the “ex-gay” movement is based on.
Well shodan if one true scotsman rapes another in prison, does that make him a homo?
no
that makes him dominant, and a rapist.
please tell me you understand that rape isn’t all about sex. Generally rape in prison is due to extreme societal pressure.
Now, if our romantic and sexual identity is a product of socialization, then we must all be born with a bisexual disposition
this is just not the case
need further convincing?
Imagine being a thirteen year old girl and somehow finding some stinky gangly big footed lumpy throated creaky voiced obnoxious pimpleheaded boy attractive and actually wanting to place your mouth on him and kiss him (with tongue)
now imagine you’re a thirteen year old boy and thinking the same thing about the same guy
no way that happens without some biological drive and internal reward, no way societal pressure is that strong.
it’s like my mom always used to say: “if your friends were jumping off the brooklyn bridge after having hot manly lovin’ does that mean you have to?”
I only offered the denial scenerio as a possible explanation in some cases…hence the word ‘partly.’ I do not find it impossible to imagine that someone over a couple decades can change from a 0 to a 4. I actually believe that people do change in such a manner, although I doubt that such change is commonplace.
In other cases…
Perhaps denial can be subconscious.
Perhaps with social pressures, a person can dig hard within himself/herself to find an attraction for certain individuals of the same gender.
Perhaps the hormonal balance in some bodies alters its course over a period of several or more years.
Perhaps certain living environments have a gradual effect on human sexuality…just as rodents, according to a former biology professor of mine, can become homosexuals if exposed to a single-sex environment for an extended period of time.
In all cases, I definitely feel there must be at least a touch of homo/bisexuality in the genes in order for any sexual orientation change to occur in one’s lifetime.
Could this question be asked in reverse? I know someone who “converted” to heterosexuality and is now married to a woman. He is generally held in contempt by my gay friends for perpetuating the belief many people have that gays choose to be gay and could change if they really wanted to. But if the scale slides one way, does it slide the other too?
I will agree with blooming that if we lived in a society that wasn’t as sexually repressed as ours is (in oh so many ways), perhaps we’d see not only a lot more gay and bi folk, but we’d also see people freely exploring their sexuality regardless of where they fall on the continuum of human sexuality. Whether we’re born with it, choose it, or it chooses us without our controlling it, wouldn’t it be nice if we could just live our lives the way we felt was right and not worry about societal pressure?
I also know a few Lesbians who have ended up married - and that was not because they became Suddenly straight! They got married to get green cards - to help out a friend who’s family were hell and some even got married so they could have kids that were not stigmatised as illegitimate and socially disadvantaged! It’s a sort of Political Heterosexuality!
I have yet to meet a Lesbian who turns into a Heterosexual or a Pouf that does that either!
The term political lesbian actually identifies a woman who is the female equivalent of a Misogynist – aint it funny that there is no real word for that! A political Lesbian is a heterosexual Woman who refuses to associate with men due to a particular view of men – usually very negative. This woman adopts lesbian behaviour to gain power over her own life and sexuality and also as a negative power statement to men – “You Can’t Have me – I’m in control!”
All the folks I know are quite clear that their sexuality was clear at an early age - some were 100%pouf and others 100% straight and others fell between the two extremes! The manifestation of sexuality in society can be warped by society itself - just as some believe that Homosexuality can warp society!
For me the biggest problem is the Great big idiot who thinks I have to fancy him - and he’s as ugly as sin! I just tell him to not flatter himself and on one occasion I had the joy of telling such an idiot he did nothing for me but his dad was real hot. Funny thing is it did not make him a pouf - but it did make him laugh and less stupid!
My opinion, which I have some reason to think well-informed:
Most people are born “hardwired” for sexual orientation, whether hetero or homo.
Some people–and not a vanishingly small percent, but perhaps one in four or so–are not born hardwired for sexual orientation. These people learn to adopt a certain kind of sexual behavior for one reason or another: clearly most of the pressure is toward the hetero alternative. But it has the characteristics of a (possibly breakable) habit, not a basic “drive.”
By some absolutely unknown process, hardwiring can be briefly overridden or interrupted. I know this from personal experience. I, a thoroughly gay man, experienced a complete reversal of my orientation (so to speak) for a whole 20 minutes. It was remarkable, unexpected, and delightful–not because it was hetero per se, but because it gave me insight into how others feel. It had nothing to do with anything as far as I know; I was not in a sexual situation with anyone, not reading anything of a sexual nature, etc. That was about 15 years ago, and it has never recurred. I was in my mid-30’s.
I have met a number of men who defined themselves as heterosexual for decades, raised a family, and then were “hit” by an apparent change. In contrast to my experience, the change lasted. I have heard of no one who changed in this way who later resumed heterosexuality. Perhaps they were all “non-hardwired” people.
It’s perfectly understandable why someone would feel betrayed, confused, and hostile when someone they are close to makes such a radical change. Still, the reaction does no good and ought to be sympathetically discouraged. (Easier said than…)
Esprix: Are you trying to tell us something? Are you going to become a breeder? If so I’d like to be first in line to plotz.
Seriously though, I think it’s very easy to “discover” one’s sexuality late in life or to discover say one person who, for lack of a better word, “triggers” an interest in same-sex relations. I also know of two women who state lesbian status, but do engage in sex with men as often as with women and one confided that she primarily identifies herself as a lesbian because she “hates men”, although like Ms.Paglia she does seem to like what they are attached to.
When I got out of the Army I flirted with homosexuality but was faced with the fact that while I could be affectionate toward a man, sexually I was still attracted to women and that the only men I had so much as made out or petted with were on the extreme end of feminine. I had to do some soul searching and realize that, like the one women I mentioned, I simply did not like women and in fact was quite mad at them due to an emotional betrayal I had suffered while I the service. I percieved that since I was upset with women that i must still be a social-sexual organism and that men were my only option. Rather than using insight to determine why I did not get along with women I simply assumed all the problems I had with the female gender were do to my latent homosexuality and assumed a “gay” lifestyle (not terribly difficult since I grew up listening to goth/new wave and all the best discos are gay clubs anyhow).
It wasn’t until I was confronted by a gay man who was interested in me and who I had been out with a few times and who was frustrated at my avoidance of actual sex that i had to figure out where i really was “at”. In his words “If you won’t even touch another man’s dick then you need to stop calling yourself ‘gay’ and being such a prick tease. Letting a man suck your dick does not make you gay, it just means your fooling yourself or drunk, in your case both.”.
I suspect that there are probably people like myself who are convinced they are gay because they are just not good with the opposite sex. Not many, but I know I was at least one. Fortunately I was confronted (harshly, albiet) and I dealt with my emotional issues which were preventing me from being the sexual being i was intended to be.
No, no one is born gay. Or heterosexual. Infants have no particular orientation (in my opinion).
At some point in their childhood, they imprint on one gender or the other. I doubt very much this is a random process, since most people are primarily heterosexual.
Rumor has it that Cary Grant, who fits in the “blue horse” category, had a fling with Sophia Loren. Well, duh!
There’s sexy. The there’s very sexy. Then there’s thermonuclear sexy, weapons grade sexy, bang your head against the wall till it bleeds sexy. Sophia Loren sexy.
The original expression is not terribly polite, best rendered as “gay as a blue horse”. For the record, I am speaking entirely from ignorance, as I am devoutly hetero, as any number of amazingly stupid decisions will testify. And, as my opinion in this matter isn’t of the slightest consequence, I think I’ll just keep it, sort of a mental knick-knack.
First off, I have no clue whatsoever what would make people (like Esprix) normally attracted to one gender attracted to a particular individual in another. In my experience, it’s been that that person fits a sort of personal "meter’ of attractiveness that normally swings the other way. Or just that they have an eye for art.
Secondly, blooming, there is indeed a word for women that hate men. Tis “misandrogyst” (forgive me, it isn’t spelled right).
Thirdly, I personally think that sexuality isn’t really a continum either. I think of it as more of an n-dimensional space, determining things like whom people are attracted to, what attracts people, what they happen to like. Parts of this may change over time, parts may not.
Again, I really cannot buy that people somehow “convert” their sexuality so drastically. It strikes me as if it were possible, more people would have done it in order to avoid the social stigmas. I can’t shake the feeling that those whom think they have are truly deluding themselves.
Dangerosa, I think that you should remember society, which would look quite a bit more harshly (although I believe this is improving) on a male whom decided to have a fling with homosexuality or whatever. That sort of thing can really hurt one’s life due to cultural influences.
For the record, I do not believe people are generally bisexual, but I do think that sex is less important than we believe when it comes to attractiveness.