I don’t see the conflicting advice. I see fantasy meeting reality, time and time again.
The parents of a friend of mine I guess. Dad was military, started drinking too much and hit the mom one day. She stood up to him and forbade him from drinking or ever hitting her again. He quit drinking and never hit her again. They lived many happy years together.
I can’t speak to inadequacy, but with respect to abuse it seems that people get locked into mutually reinforcing cycles with their SOs. A man or woman may be abusive in a relationship because that’s the way they have been trained to act or because they can get away with it. It’s really about behavioral conditioning in most circumstances.
I don’t think you can “reform” someone who has a tendency to be verbally or physically abusive, but you can (from what I’ve seen) stop the behavior absolutely dead by refusing to put up with it. The person then needs to decide if their first impulse to react is worth losing the relationship. Not forgiving or accepting bad behavior is what is necessary to effect this change, but the SOs being abused are often slack about enforcing this as they have their own issues.
So I guess the answer is “yes” you can absolutely stop/reform abusive behavior, but it takes a hard line by the SO, and people that have gotten into the context of being abused over long periods of time are often in those situations because they let the abuse happen and grow over time, so expecting them to stand up for themselves out of the blue is sometimes unrealistic.
In a battle of wills the only real choice the abused party has in many scenarios is to leave if they want to get out from under. The weird thing is that sometimes the “abuser” will enter a new relationship with another person and be perfectly well behaved. It really is a two way street. Some people just do not belong together.
Worked in male family violence programs for 5+ years.
Often the most important thing that helped them do something was finding out that the other person really was willing to leave over it, ie it wasnt a case of they’d stay forever no matter what.
Usually the person has stood up for themselves in a variety of ways, but this is the one that was finally effective in getting them to a program. Generally there were tons of warnings beforehand, but the person just didnt believe they’ll actually do it.
Id say the amount of men who turned up without external pressure of some sort (usually the partner) being involved to be less than 1%.
Otara
How many women (or therapists) does it take to change a lightbulb?
…
Just one. But the lightbulb has got to want it himself.
You can’t change character from the outside. No amount of nagging will do it.
This is 100% true, but the real world flipside of the abused/abuser dynamic is that in a number of cases it’s not necessarily a simple scenario of an abusive predator and a helpless victim, but a relationship dynamic where two people (or at least one person in the relationship) have gotten to despise each other over time, and a lot of the abusive acting out (especially verbal) flows from that.
If it’s someone acting out because off alcohol or other external influences it might actually be easier to stop that kind of abuse vs the kind coming from a relationship where people do not respect each other.
How are you guys defining change?
The way I understand it, it should be obvious that you can change people. Here is an overly simplistic example: I asked my roommate to keep the TV volume at a lower at night. So far, the volume has been lower.
Does this mean that he lowered the volume only because he wanted to lower the volume, and I was irrelevant? If he didn’t want to lower the volume, do you think there is no way I could have convinced him to do it?
If you are saying that certain behaviors are impossible to change, then that’s more understandable. However, it sounds like you’re saying all change is impossible.
If, at 22, I had had kayaker’s wisdom or my ex-wife had had PoorYorick’s grandmother’s advice, we might have saved each other a lot of trouble.
Inadequacy is now grounds for divorce?
Maybe it’s a bit tangential, but I’ve heard of the so-called “missionary dating” practice that was at least at one time popular with young girls with strong religious beliefs. The idea was to find some unbelieving boy and reform him through love <3. When I was in college the message from Evangelical pastors was, “Don’t do it”. I was told it was primarily an issue with the girls and that boys didn’t tend to want to “missionary date” unbelieving girls.
If one has been inadequate since before the marriage, apparently yes in Illinois.
That’s an understandable assumption from the young woman’s perspective. In real world practice pussy, or the potential thereof, will cause all sorts of short term behavior modification on the part of men. Emphasis on “short”.
You’re probably just missing a comma, but “practice pussy” sounds intriguing…
I don’t think so. I keep beating my wife, but no matter what, she still keeps nagging the shit out of me about my drinking and cocaine use. Some people just can’t be changed.
As several people have mentioned it is only possible if the “abusive or inadequate significant other” desires change. So I’d recommend taking the -800 “remains an abusive or inadequate significant other” most of the time.
What?
As to the OP, I agree with the consensus. Someone can only change if they want to and for themselves. The influence of others is only tangential.
Lakai, you did not change your roommate’s behavior. Your roommate was unaware that the tv volume they’d selected was too loud for you. Once you told him that it was too loud, his innate consideration caused him to turn down the volume and keep that in mind.
His behavior did not change. Before and after your request, he was a minimally considerate person.
Loud televisions happen. It’s difficult to tell under most circumstances that the volume you chose - within reason - might bother or distress someone else. You’re not aware, unless the person chooses to tell you, that it’s just too loud for them.
Abuse is not the same as a loud television. There’s no instance where someone hits, shoves, belittles, slaps, threatens, insults, or frightens another person does not know that the other person is distressed. That’s what abuse does: it distresses the other person. That’s why abusers do these things: to distress the other person, put them in fear, cause them harm, and put them under the abuser’s power.
The same goes for addiction. The addict knows that the things they do to get whatever they’re using are harmful, deceitful, mean, petty, irresponsible, and ugly. They know that. They may not admit it, but they know it. They do it, because it gets them what they want.
So, there’s a fundamental difference between asking someone “Hey, that’s a little loud. Would you turn it down?” and saying “You do not ever get to hit me. Period. Do it, and I call the cops on my way out of here.” One is a reasonable request made in a reasonable situation, giving the other person information they didn’t have. The other is a statement that should never have to be made, because hitting people is completely unacceptable in any relationship.
I think change comes from within. Through my relationship with my wife, her and I both have changed, but it was changes we decided for ourselves. But it is always a choice the person makes for themselves.
If someone is doing behavior that bothers you, it boils down to whether they decide to stop it, not whether you can force them to.
Not personal experience, but I’ve known a couple where the husband did control his alcoholism and, last I knew anyhow, has been sober for 15+ years. Also know a couple where the husband did not change and died too young from his addiction.
The difference, as far as I know, was that the person that needed to change had to want to change. There’s just no replacement for that.