Has anyone ever "reverse-converted" a Mormon missionary?

For the most part, not a lot of 19- or 20-year guys are terribly introspective. Given the – for many – overwhelming social pressure to go on missions, many guys who aren’t completely committed to Mormonism go along to avoid upsetting their families or being able to marry a Mormon girl when they get back. Since these people aren’t that convinced about Mormonism themselves, then they are unlikely to be converted to another church. They are more likely to pass their time and go back with some great stories, marry a Mormon girl and live happily thereafter, or, as in my case, drop out after they return.

Mormon missionaries live in a bubble, surrounded by other missionaries, and repeating truths to themselves. I was surprised to see the difference in my perspective of Japan as a missionary seeing things through the filter of the stories passed down from senior to junior, and then looking at it again as a ex-Mormon.

You go though a training program designed – as it should be – to enhance “spiritual” experiences, which helps reinforce people who are wavering. For the others, the climate is intentionally created to not allow honest questions, and almost everyone falls in line.

For Sampiro’s example, this happen either a lot or not much, depending on how you view the numbers. If you were to compare Mormon missionaries against other similarly aged males, you would be surprised that so many of them don’t die of backed up sperm disease. Sure, you laugh, but at 19 to 21 years of age, could you go two years without sex or even releasing it yourself?

However, if you were to believe, as is common, that missionaries were special people, with a divine calling to a specific geographic area, then even one stray is too many.

You have to understand that missionaries’ lives are regulated minutely. Hiking as an actively was OK, but not swimming. We were allowed to play half-court basketball, but not full-court, for example. Why? No one is allowed to ask, but this was in the “White Book” or set of rules which we were required to carry everywhere we went.

After giving up in vain on trying to make sense of the deep mysteries, I would still like one, good honest reason why it was sinful to play full-court basketball.

Anyway, I digress. I personally knew a few who did the dirty deed as missionaries. That actually takes courage, as this is the worst possible thing which missionaries could do. (Other than killing their companion, and in my entire live I’ve only heard of one case of that. Having given up the religion years ago, it may have happened since I’ve been out of the loop.) Having sex will immediately get you sent home, without exception.

As in the old joke about everyone’s ability to count to nine, (from when marriages were supposed to happen first, and then the baby) everyone knows when you leave on a mission you won’t be back for 24 months. Anything shy of that will cause an indelible stain on the family name.

That said, one guy I knew used to sneak out after lights out to shag a lady down the street. He was “lucky” as even though people has suspensions, no one had any proof, so when the Mission President called him on the carpet, he just lied through his teeth and sensibly denied anything. No need embarrassing your family while you’re having fun. Naturally, he didn’t hang around with the saints when he got back.

I once worked and roomed with a guy who had been a Mormon until he’d graduated from BYU and was on his own financially, at which point he quietly but firmly decided he was no longer interested in religion. He didn’t rebel, flip out, take dope, etc., but simply told his family he’d made his decision. Twenty years later he’s happily married (to a non-Mormon) with three children, and on good terms with his family.

He said one thing that had influenced his decision was that the people he’d managed to convert on his mission were invariably old, poor and lonely – basically those with no one to talk to. Not only did he feel a little guilty using these hardships to get them to listen to his spiel, he began to wonder how sincere any conversion made under such circumstances would be.

I’ve know a number of people who became disillusioned about the religion while on their missions and came back and moved always like this.

While I’m sure by just the sheer number of missionaries out there, there must be at least one case of a reverse conversion, the dropping out afterwards happens much more frequently.

You’re referring to “A New England,” which Bragg wrote and performed. The late great Kirsty Maccoll re-recorded the song with an extra verse penned by Bragg himself and it became a huge hit. I can see how your friend might have heard this, and thought he was singing about a gay lover.

He’s an awesome artist, avowed socialist, and friend of the oppressed, so I think he’s very gay friendly and likely has a lot of friends in that community (I know he did a huge tour in the 80s in support of the Labour Party called “Red Wedge,” and Jimmy Somerville was very involved in that). I can also see him being friendly with Stipe - similar political leanings for sure.

There’s actually a bootleg CD of nothing but covers of TOM’S DINER and one is an impromptu duet recorded of him and Stipe. It’s the one on this album credited to “Bingo Hand Job”. (That [plus the fact the first two lines of A New England are lifted from Leaves That Are Green] concludes this hijack and, not coincidentally, the extent of my Bragg knowledge. :cool: )

Let’s say you took a Mormon missionary and a Jehovah’s Witness missionary and you handcuffed them together. What would happen?

I have this awful mental image of one of those “Ring Of Death” type things you see in bad Mexploitation Movies where two guys get one hand tied to each other, then they’re both given a knife and have to fight to the death for whatever reason…

Back in relation to the OP though; I don’t have a lot of experiences with Mormons but what has been said elsewhere in the thread seems to match up with the limited information I’ve had from talking to people at Uni who have been involved with mission work.

Personally, I wonder how the Missionaries keep their faith up when 99.99% of people they talk to will respond with something that involves either shutting the door on them, telling them to fuck off, or- at best “LOL No” in response to their proselytising…

There’s a Mormon temple right up the street from where I work. Thye came by a few times when we first opened, but I quickly pointed out that I would never join a religion that discriminates against women. Women can’t be priests my atheistic ass.

For the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I point out that they believe Jehovah is God, and Jesus is a god, but not Jehovah God, so their religion has two gods. But they claim to have only one God. Explain that one if you can.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are easy to get rid of, assuming there’s another guy around the house. I call him to the door, put my arm around him, flame it up a bit and say “this is my looooover, what do you think?”

My lovely and talented mother used to politely let them come in and give them tea. She had one young woman coming by with increasing frequency, and discussing religion with decreasing frequency. Eventually, some higher-up type person dropped by and chatted with my mum about her religious beliefs, and then the young woman stopped coming by.

Best guess? The young woman was hanging out with my mum and drinking tea and enjoying the relaxation and chat that is my mother’s stock in trade. Then telling the higher-ups about how my mum was considering converting, etc., thereby avoiding the nasty gritty door to door work, or at least getting a break from it. Not sure of the exact brand of religion to which the young lady belonged.

Not exactly a converso story, but it does cast some light on the grind that that sort of work must be.

Myself, I usually just say "My current religion is adequately meeting my needs at this time, thank you. ", which I find is both polite, and gives the impression that religion is a service not unlike long distance.

Either that, or I ask them to explain Leviticus.

Not a “Ring of Death” movie, its a chain gang movie.

Handcuffed together.
Forced to run for their lives to escape religious persecution.
Unable to satisfy their sexual needs.
Unwilling to shut up about their beliefs.
Certain to be caught due to their constant witnessing and arguing over obscure bible passages.

Its “Brother hast thou heard the word?”

Now at theatres everywhere.

There was a programme on BBC (IIRC) tv a few years ago about Mormon missionaries in Northern Ireland. One missionary the show followed started having huge doubts about his work saying things like “Is it really right that we should force this on other people? I mean what they believe could also be right” etc. He was summoned home and put on a course of anti-depressants for his troubles.

I can.

Can you?

Nope.
In all seriousness, and with respect, I’d love to hear it. My religion doesn’t think gods are all that important, but I find this kind of stuff fascinating.

The bible refers to many gods. People are often referred to gods. Inanimate objects are often referred to as gods. The bible also refers to ‘false gods’; gods created by people/groups/nations that exist nowhere but in their minds and doctrines. Greed, immorality, and things like that can serve as gods. Satan himself was called a god. And so was Jesus.

However, in every single instance that Jehovah is referred to, a distinction is made that separates him as different. Terms like “Sovereign Lord God”,and others identify him as the Creator and the only True God. This distinction is not obscure or arcane.

JWs make note of this biblical distinction and do not refer to Jesus as god, or God. While contextually he can be considered a god (as can many other things, people and conditions), as a practical matter he is seen as the Son of God, Savior, Redeemer, King and other titles the bible calls him.

Essentially, they take him at his word, and make the same distinction he made for himself. What that means is that they see Jesus as an integral part—in fact a necessary part—of worshiping God—Jehovah God. Jesus himself set this example, and even taught people one example as to how to pray—once again, to his father, Jehovah. (commonly called “The Lord’s Prayer” Matt 6:9-13)

At any rate, the JWs do not have “two gods” as Annie-Xmas stated. JWs pray to Jehovah God, through, or via, the sacrifice made by Jesus that makes prayer to God possible. They do not pray to Jesus, nor do they worship him. (and any JW would be pleased to show you the biblical basis for this)

Ironically, Annie-Xmas’s inaccuracy does highlight the dichotomy of many Christians who do indeed see Jesus as the Capital G God, and, coupled with the Holy Spirit, worship 3 gods as part of the non-biblical Trinity Doctrine.

So if Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in more than one “god,” it is not a monotheistic religion.

No, Annie, that is not correct.

This is a purely semantic matter. JWs are using the term “god” differently than the way you (and I) use it. For them, “a god” means, or anyway can be used to refer to, a person deserving of great honor. What you mean when you say “a god” translates into their “language” as “an entity equal in power and authority to Jehovah.”

Using the term as the JW’s use it, then, its clear that a polytheist would be someone who believes there is more than one entity equal in power and authority to Jehovah. (To be clear, what I just said is what you believe about monotheism, put into their language.) They don’t believe there is more than one such entity. Hence they are monotheists.

They do believe that there is more than one person who deserves great honor. That’s what they believe, put into your language. (In their language they would say “There is more than one person who is, or at least can permissibly be called, a god.”) But this belief in a multiplicitly of honorable people is not polytheism.

-FrL-

-FrL-

I’ve been tempted to buy a stack of Jon Krakauer’s excellent, well-researched and gripping book on Mormonism since its founding, Under the Banner of Heaven (Doubleday 2003), and give them to the LDS missionaries who occasionally come to my door. Don’t know that I’d reverse-convert them, but it might put some thoughts in their heads that the Mormon brass don’t want there.

A mainstream LDS woman I know has a very low opinion of this book, regardless of the fact that she’s never (and will never) read it. Just based on word of mouth.

I liked it, but then I grew up in a Mormon town and saw a lot of what it describes.

I’ve never converted any Mormon missionaries; however, during my brief career as a door-to-door salesman, I did once knock on their door during their dinner and sell them a bunch of crap they didn’t need. Door-to-door sales is generally an all-around crappy endeavor, but that was one of the rare moments that brought a brief sense of satisfaction…