Last week a couple of young Mormon missionaries rang my doorbell. We ended up talking on my porch for over an hour. I did more talking then they did trying to explain why some of their rationale for belief was wrong. I told them if they could produce enough evidence for believing the claims of their church they had a convert (being reasonably certain that there are no such reasons and hoping I could get somewhere in at least getting them to acquire a healthy skepticism). One of them told me the evidence is that Joseph Smith could not have known what he did if it weren’t for his revelations. When I asked for a few examples, he told me I’d have to read the Book of Mormon as a whole. :rolleyes: They gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon and I gave them my only copy of The Demon-Haunted World. I also gave the one that did most of the talking my email address and told him to keep in touch. He sent me an email the other day:
So, if they make it Friday, I’m going to invite them in and let them finish their sales pitch and give mine. Any tips from my fellow Dopers would be appreciated. Any points you know that I should make or questions I should ask? Anything else? Thanks.
When I lived in western Maryland, there was a house a few blocks away from me that was always occupied by Mormon missionaries; Every pair of missionaries that lived there (and I met them all over the course of five years) were, without fail, polite, pleasant, nice people. I had them over to talk frequently.
I always made it clear right up front that I’m perfectly happy with my faith (I’m Baha’i), and that I was not going to convert, but they were welcome to stop by and we could shoot the breeze about religion or anything else.
I usually hosted them for dinner once or twice a month, too.
Generally, during the course of our visits, if they would ask if it was OK to say a prayer, I’d say “Sure; you share one of yours, then I’ll share one of mine”. They were always totally cool about that.
As far as imparting a healthy skepticism in them, I dunno how successful you’ll be. But from my experience with missionaries, as long as you are not openly hostile, they will be pleasant and friendly.
Me either. Mormon missionaries are limited in their reading material - only LDS-approved books. No newspapers. No novels. So it’s highly unlikely - if he is a good upstanding LDS missionary - that he read your book. Might want to quiz him on it…
And this:
If you read it and get a warm fuzzy feeling, it’s from God. If you read it, and don’t get an answer, or get an answer that it’s not right, it’s your fault because you didn’t ask sincerely enough. A classic double-bind scenario.
Don’t try to talk to them about HBO’s Big Love. They’ll get mad and leave. I tried once and that’s what happened. I really wasn’t trying to be an ass. I know the show depicts a fundamentalist sect not affiliated with the official church. It’s one of my favorite shows and I wanted to talk about it with real live Mormons from Utah, since they were nice enough to stop by.
Absolutely. I asked these guys about the show after finding out they were from Utah. I wasn’t expecting them to see themselves in the show or anything either. I just wanted to know if they’d seen it and had an opinion. If I met someone from west Baltimore I might ask them about The Wire, similarly. I’ve felt bad about it ever since, especially since they were young guys. I really didn`t mean to insult them or make fun of them.
Are you receptive to their sales pitch? If not, why do you think they would be receptive to yours? If you don’t agree with them just say so, you don’t have to make it your “mission” to de-program them.
I get the feeling you are intending to score some snark points by taking the piss out of the lads. My opinion - they’re being nice to you - return the favor.
I knew someone would want to turn this into a debate. Can’t you find one somewhere else? I didn’t start this thread to answer a bunch of questions on my motives and answer to accusations that include inferences to me not being nice.
I mentioned it in my OP.
I’ll be listening. If they have compelling reasons why Mormonism is actually a religion brought down by God, I’ll explore them. So the answer to your question is “yes”.
I’m hoping they’re open minded enough to be receptive to them. Whether or not I am, is irrelevant, btw.
I did. Plenty. They’re the ones choosing to come back to my house uninvited.
I know I don’t have to, thanks. Nice red herring, btw.
Based on something I wrote? Bullshit! My opinion.
I wasn’t being nice? Or do you have a good reason to believe I won’t be?
This is basically a repeat of your first question. Same answer.
I don’t have the time or interest to debate this with you further, Icarus, and I also don’t want to see this thread get highjacked into a thread about why one should or shouldn’t challenge the beliefs of missionaries who are ringing my doorbell to convert me, so I’ll probably let any further questions you have for me go unanswered.
I don’t remember if they were Mormons of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but when I was a toddler my mother took me up to Grandma & Grandpa’s lake cottage. One afternoon she was alone except for me and our collie mix, (hereafter refered to as G). Two well dressed young men came to the door and wanted to talk religion. Mom wasn’t interested in listening to them and asked them to leave. One of them was a little over eager and stuck his foot in the door so Mom couldn’t close it. G didn’t like this and attacked him (he ended up in the ER). He did sue, but the judge “laughed him out of court” and made him pay Mom’s legal bills. Apparently sticking his foot in the door made him an intruder and G was merely doing her duty by protecting her mistress.
Obviously, this is just a WAG, but based on my experiences with both groups, this sounds more like Jehovah’s Witnesses to me. Personally, I’ve never encountered resistance from Mormon missionaries when I’ve told them I don’t have time to talk right now, but I’ve gotten plenty of resistance, to the point of obnoxiousness, from JW’s. I remember one Saturday morning, I was trying to ready the house for a gaggle of pre-teen girls coming that afternoon for my daughter’s sleepover birthday party. The doorbell rang, and it turned out to be two JW’s, wanting to talk to me about the end of the world (insert appropriately dramatic music here). I explained to them, as politely as I could, that I really did not have time for any kind of discussion, as I was preparing for a birthday party. They would not go away. I literally had to shut the door in their faces (which is something I hate to be forced into doing, but they really did force my hand).
Now, to be fair, I have had encounters with JW’s who, upon being told I’m not interested, merely hand me a copy of The Watchtower, mumble something about having a nice day, and go away. But on the whole, JW’s tend to be much pushier, IME, than Mormons.
As a former Mormon missionary, I say don’t bother. I mean, if you liked these guys and don’t mind hanging out with them and talking past each other, then by all means invite them in when they show up on Friday. But really they aren’t going to be open-minded or receptive to much of anything you say.
They really pump the missionaries up full of propaganda and sales techniques. It gets in the way of just having a normal conversation. Don’t forget: you are a potential convert to them; they think they just have to pray hard enough and say the right things and you’ll have a change of heart. They also have a prearranged lesson that they’ll try to give you. They aren’t just coming by to shoot the shit.
That being said, I really do appreciate all the people who let me in their houses when I was a pushy missionary, and even more the people who gave me food. Also, it was nice to meet people and have regular conversations with them, but the training gets in the way of that too. There’s always pressure to always be “teaching” and “converting.” That’s why there’s always two of them, to keep the other one on task!
Just from my personal experience (I’ve since left the Mormon church), you’ll never convince a missionary of the error of his ways. They’re too young and under too much pressure. The falling away comes later.
This realization was an essential step in my leaving the church. Once it occurred to me that I could develop a “testimony” of ANYTHING if I tried hard enough, I started looking for better reasons to believe it and found none.
Fantome, the missionaries are not likely to be very pushy so you can have a friendly chat or just tell them you don’t want to meet with them. Up to you. They are not selected for their sales drive, and it’s not like they can get fired if they don’t hit their numbers, so the factors that make a lot of salesman pushy just aren’t there.
Don’t expect a very spirited discussion if you do talk to them, though. They really aren’t trained to do anything other than give prepackaged lessons. I tend to wind up in drawn-out discussions when they darken my doorstep (‘Oh yeah, I’m familiar with Mormons, I used to be one’… discussion ensues), but it’s kinda boring. There are Mormons on this board who are a lot smarter than the average 19 y/o missionary, if you must debate something.
Religions do not really expect their canvassers to convert anyone. It is mainly used as a reinforcing technique for the congregation. Although it may seem silly, there are several reasons why this is an effective technique:
[ol]
[li]Repeat any sales pitch often enough and you will start to believe it. [/li][li]The rejection reinforces the exclusivity / specialness of the chosen followers.[/li][li]It is a very public pronouncement of commitment to the religion, making subsequent renunciation more difficult / embarrassing.[/li][li]The more time and effort someone sinks into something, the more likely they are to rationalize the outcome as being favorable or worthwhile. (This is also why there is a positive correlation between the severity of initiation and subsequent loyalty to / satisfaction with fraternities.)[/li][/ol]
The library I work in is regularly visited by Mormon missionaries (they really do emailing once a week to people back home and folks they’ve chatted with), but many of them (though not all) leave with stacks of books and DVDs they aren’t allowed to read with the adult supervision back home.
Being able to watch Pulp Fiction and read Wolverine comics must be like Rumspringa to Mormons.
A few years ago out of boredom I let a pair of missionaries try to convert me. At the time I knew nothing about their beliefs although I had worked with a Mormon who was a nice enough bloke. The two guys were pleasant and the American guy knew lots of music that wasn’t popular in Australia but turned out to be stuff I liked.
They were proceeding nicely on their planned program for 2 or 3 visits but then all the tribes in America nonsense came up. I read up about their beliefs and I had to tell them that they were wasting their time. They tried to get me to a meeting or to meet other people but I told them that it would be dishonest of me to go, that the things that they believed as articles of faith were the very things that convinced me that they were kidding themselves.
I agree absolutely with your list; the first purpose of Mormon missionary work is to convert the missionary and ensure a life-long commitment to the church. Sunk costs play a big role. However, it’s wrong to say that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t expect their canvassers to convert anyone. In fact, many people actually do convert to both religions (although fewer and fewer, in my opinion). It looks to outsiders like no one converts simply because of the inefficiency of the system. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons don’t have to pay for their missionaries so they don’t care how many hours are wasted pitching to uninterested people. All that wasted time is chalked up to the purposes on your list, converting the converters.