justwannano
I’ve been caught out before by people posting stupid things to make an ironic point.
Does your road car have a five point harness that secures you so tight you cannot move forward?
Do you think Rusty would like his airbag going off every time his car hits a bump or bumps another car?
If clear thinking had any redeeming qualities, you would think that people would use it.
Russell
Hey, Russell, don’t feel bad, it happens to us all, with horrible regularity :).
Best safety device that could be fitted to a car? A large sharp metal spike in the middle of the steering wheel in place of an air bag. Then you’d drive carefully 
Don’t gloat andy, it’s not nice.
Russell
Russell, if you only knew how many times i’ve made an asshole of myself, you’d know I absolutely was not gloating.
Time to build up speed? Did someone miss a few physics lessons? If a car is in motion, you are already moving at the speed of the car. When the car stops, you are still in motion until you are stopped by enough force. There is no universal “speed build up” because the passengers are already moving. The “hitting the wall” analogy is invalid unless there is an opposite force acting on the car for a significantly longer amount of time while you are flying toward the airbag. This would probably depend on the nature of the accident. I don’t have any times on hand; perhaps somebody has some NTSB numbers they’d like to share.
The more likely reason that smaller people are more at risk is the same reason the smaller car gets mangled in a collision with a semi: a thicker, heavier hide gives you more protection than a thin one.
Forgive me coming into this thread a bit late, but I have been otherwise occupied.
First let me state that I work as an ALS ambulance officer. I feel that qualifies me to make a contribution here.
Traumatic injuries that results from MVA’s are due to kinetic energy. The collision doesn’t stop when you car hits the other car, or when you hit the inside of your car; it stops when your internal organs stop colliding with each other in the walls of your skull, chest or abdominal cavity.
The potential for serious trauma is compiled in a list of indicators known as Champion’s Criteria:
MVA 60km/h or greater (30km/h for pedestrian)
Rollover
Death of an occupant
Ejection of an occupant
Side intrusion greater than 30cm
Displacement of an axle more than 30cm
Gross damage to the vehicle
That is the list just for MVA’s. These are used to indicate the need for medical examination of someone who otherwise appears to have little or no injury.
All vehicle safety systems are designed with this central point in point: to minimise the transfer of kinetic energy to the occupant(s) of the vehicle.
Seatbelts do save lives - there is no doubt about it. Any device that slows or stops your impact into your car’s interior reduces the amount of kinetic energy transferred to your body.
Unfortunately, the myth of “I was lucky, I was thrown clear” still persists. The Vehicle Accident Investigation Squad in South Australia assure me the statistics show that persons ejected from a vehicle are 300% more likely to sustain a serious life-threatening injury.
Airbags in Australian vehicles are technically known as supplementary restraint systems, and are designed to work in conjunction with a correctly fitted seatbelt. All cars in Australia must have lap/sash belts fitted, and by law, seatbelts must be worn at all times while the car is in motion.
Because of this, airbags conforming to the Australian standard deploy at a slower speed than those of US cars. Presumably, US airbags deploy quicker to overcome the possibility of no seatbelt being worn.
The danger of wearing an incorrectly fitted lap/sash belt, or belt that is lap or sash only, is in possibility of either “submarining” (slipping downwards uinder the belt) or in slipping out over the top.
A person slipping over the top will impact the windscreen, whereas a person submarining will risk having the belt lodge up under the ribcage, causing increased intra-abdominal and thoracic pressure, with potential damage to any underlying organs.
An airbag deploying into a person caught in this manner will cause a sudden huge thrust of additional pressure that is potentiallly fatal. The greater speed of US airbags only increases the potential.
For those of you who have airbags: great!!
Just don’t rely on them totally, and make sure you seatbelt is properly fitted while you are in the car.
Knock softly but firmly, 'cause I like soft firm knockers…
**BigRoryG:[b/]
My post was not intended to be ‘offensive’ to you or anyone else. I have friends in academia who jokingly refer to themselves as ‘pointy headed professors.’
The deployment of an airbag is equivalent to an explosion inside the car. People who have lived through this experience do not want to experience it again, ever. Nonetheless, governments continue to require the installation of these menaces without regard to tragic consequences like the one in Toronto.
Please direct your outrage and disgust at the ever increasing intrusion of government into our lives.
::
Major Feelgud writes:
Speaking as an expert? This kind of statement smacks of paranoia. Statistics are a damn sight better than wild guesses and lame theories… Besides, there’s a lot more than statistics behind the airbag safety studies. Lots of testing with real data have shown airbags to reduce the risk of fatal injuries.
The parachute analogy was meant to be a bit humorous, but it makes a point. Airbags reduce your forward momentum somewhat gradually rather than the abrupt reduction in momentum on feels when striking a steering column or windshield. Granted the bag is not that soft and the decelleration is still pretty abrupt, but there is very little time and space to effect this reduction in momentum.
Why do you say that? I’ve never heard of an accident where someone died because the airbag deployed too slowly???
Care to back up this claim in some way. Make sure you calculate the cost of testing and redundant, failsafe design. Airbags are a fairly expensive component of your car, yet the cost to consumers are kept pretty low - simply because consumers refuse to pay extra for them. The only people getting rich off of airbags are the insurance companies…
Good advice, and while you’re at it, make sure you develop those lightning fast reflexes because the typical airbag deploys in about 50ms, which is 10 times faster than most humans can think and react…
What a load… Short people are not are greater risk because they are more forward, they are at greater risk because they can go under the airbag. The greatest number of deaths due to airbags have been with small children sitting in the front passenger seat. They are not any closer to the airbag (except in the cases of unrestrained children who are thrown forward by the pre-impact braking), in fact they are usually farther away since the bag deploys from dash.
According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration’s report to Congress:
Short translation: Broken neck.
All that talk of building up speed is bunk. We’re dealing with properties of decelleration here, not acceleration.
This is so ludicrous it’s almost funny. I’ve have the misfortune to have experienced both a face full of steering column and a face full of airbag. There’s no comparison. I’ll take the airbag any day. My head is still firmly attached to my body, in case you’re wondering. I’ve never hear of a case where an airbag litterally ‘ripped’ someone’s head off… On the other hand, decapitations from poorly positioned seatbelts have been known to occur.
Gee The point that I was going to make is maybe Rusty can still steer his car or at least affect the direction after the crash. Kind of important don’t you think?
I don’t understand the mindset of someone that thinks that the best way is to stop the driver from steering the car.
I had an accident similar to this one. A guy pulled out from a stop sign right in front of me as I was driving my compact car (Ford Aspire) at about 55 mph. I think I hit him at about 45 mph. His car spun around the same way as above, and both my air bags went off (I was wearing my seat belt). I had to turn off the engine after impact, but the front third of the engine compartment was crumpled and the front axle had been shoved backward.
I had a small scrape on my right hand that I didn’t even notice until I dug into my pocket to get my DL for the cop. And I was sore for a few days afterward. I don’t want to know how badly I’d have been hurt without the seatbelt/air bag combination. And when the insurance company totaled my Aspire, I went out and bought another one.
I’ve heard that the things go off at 25mph. Too slow of a speed I think.I don’t think the drivers body is in that much jepordy until a greater speed. I have to admit I don’t know what speed that is though. I may be lucky or I like to call it skill since I drive for a living, but I havent been in an accident for over 20years. The last one I had control of the car until it stopped. Air bags would not have let me do that.
The only injury accident I was ever in was a Head on crash. I estimate both our speeds were 45mph. He had been drinking. He broke his arm and I cut my face up on the horn rim. There was a mechanical failure on my car I think because it knocked both front wheels out from under my 63 bonniville.A frame failure .His 62 chevy did not have as much damage but was totaled.
We hit at a combined speed of 90mph.
Use your own conclusions but my point is too slow a speed.
Just my two cents…
In the early 90s I worked on a product liability case that never went to trial for a major US auto manufacturer. The issue was minivan back bench seats that had a tendency to crumple or fold on impact. The result of this was that in a crash, whoever was in the rear seat was almost invariably ejected (even children wearing belts were thrown because the of the buckled seat).
FYI, the manufacturer settled and the seats have since been redesigned.
That said, my job was to sort the thousands of photos of crash sites. None of those ejected survived these crashes. Many were subsequently run over, often by the very vehicle they were thrown from. All I can say is, having seen these photos, I am religious about the seat belt and I hope you all are, too. Don’t imagine you will survive being thrown from a car.
That didn’t print well. An (a frame) is the piece that holds the front wheels. It allows the shock absorbers to work.
Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding what you said, but do you realize that airbags do not deploy until the car has made impact? At that point, you wouldn’t need to worry about steering anymore. At any rate, hubby just told me (in reference to your post) that the airbag inflates and deflates again within seconds, so if you needed to steer for some odd reason, the airbag would not be in your way.
Also, you would be surprised how dangerous it is to hit something even at 25 mph. You could be seriously injured by such an impact.
Jeannie
Seconds is too long a time.
Lives could be lost in that time.
What happens in that time is my responsibility.If I am able to steer clear,Brake or not brake those are my options. Not much but still significant.
One of the other contributors in this discussion saved a pedestrian from injuries by steering to miss him after an accident.
Have you ever heard of a baseball player saying that he sees a pitched ball in slow motion? Experience gives him that ability. It is the same with driving. I’m not talking about the everyday joe. I’m talking about professionals.
Your husband is right. you could be injured at 25 mph. You could also injure someone else if you do not have control of your vehicle.
Something just occured to me. Do you watch “Cops” the tv show. It’s on Fox on saturday night. They catch bad guys with a camera man in the back seat. I’ve seen several shows where the cop car is involved in an accident. I don’t recall seeing a deployed air bag after any of the crashes. Hmmm
This thread needs some facts badly.
There is a greater than 30% reduction in fatalites due to airbags. (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/airbags/factsheets/numbers.html) Now for various subgroups (i.e. short people) this may be less, but this is not a conspiracy.
You’re welcome.
oon what is only a vaugely related subject, Airbags are extreamly dangerous…
To firefighters and EMT’s
Thats right, to the emergency workers. When we come across an accident that did not deploy the airbag, or the other various explosive points on the car. I have seen firefighters picked up and thrown from the car when the airbag goes off in their face.
It used to be easy to overcome this problem, disconect the battery. Now some manufactures are placing capacators in the system, so disconnecting the battery does not help. Others are placing the battery in locations that are not easily accessable.
As more explosive components (more air bags, seatbelt pretensioners, etc) are added, the situation is only going to become more dangerous for those who come to your aid. I think its wonderful those devices are present. They help prevent injury, in conjunction with seatbelts, (hitting a pillow instead of a stearing column is a good thing) but once the crunching is done, any left undeployed become a pain in the ass…
Kinooning it up for 20 years and counting
It’s very possible that the car will still be moving after impact. We’re not talking only head-on collisions here.
With the air bag in your face, you won’t see what’s in front of you, and who knows what you’ll plow into…
justwannano wrote:
The typical airbag deploy and deflate time is under 1 second. Since the airbag only deploys in situations that would force the driver out of steering control anyway, this second is not lost. If the airbag does deploy and if the vehicle is still moving and if the steering linkage is still operational (a lot of big ‘ifs’), it is likely that the deflated airbag could be a hindrance to manuverability.
I have, in fact, seen airbags deploy in police cars on the “Cops” TV show or “America’s Funniest Police Crashups”. The reason that they don’t deploy in most police situations is that police use a side impact nudge manuvre. The inertial sensors are designed to trigger on fairly direct front impacts that cause the vehicle to come to a near stop. The police generally avoid these kinds of impacts because (1) they lose control and (2) they can be fatal!
kinoons writes:
I’d like to see your evidence for this. In the first place, the trigger mechanisms are specifically designed with failsafes NOT to deploy once the vehicle has stopped. In the second place, the force of the airbag deployment is not agressive enough to throw a person the way you describe.
Of this, I know a lot about, having worked with an airbag designer on this very thing. The capacitors only have enough charge to cause deployment within about 3-5 seconds of the battery disconnect. Again, not that this is a real concern once the vehicle is stopped.
Fatal Image wrote:
Actually, we are. It’s the sudden deceleration in direct forward motion that triggers deployment. This is not to say that the airbags won’t deploy with some lateral motion, but a mostly side impact or getting rear ended should not deploy your airbags.
The bag will deflate before you even have time to react, however, as I mentioned earlier, the deflated airbag could become an entanglement. Still, the chances of your vehicle being in a collision that deploys the airbag and still being steerable are fairly small.