I mean educated in the “worldly” sense, as in a person who has had extensive education, someone who is knowledgeable about a wide range of topics. Because I’ve now met a few including four today. They might have educational preparation for a profession (nurse, mechanic, etc.). But I mean educated in extensive knowledge. And more importantly, in critical thinking.
I mean, what the hell. They don’t seem to even get most of my questions. There must be some historically-minded ones, right? I just haven’t met any.
For example, today I told the two that came to my house: blood transfusions were allowed up to the 40s, then it was strictly prohibited in all forms, then it changed again to be allowable in fractions. My real question wasn’t about the blood transfusions themselves, but rather centered on the fact that a supposed perfect organization had changed its mind. The two women didn’t know what I was talking about. They insisted that it can’t have been allowed in the past because it says in the bible that it’s not allowed. They said they’d look into it. A few minutes later the doorbell rang, and it happened to be two other JW (men) so I invited them in & asked the same thing. At least one of them knew that it had been allowed in the past & then had changed. I mean, it’s a freaking life-saving procedure that is not allowed and you haven’t checked into the history behind the reasoning/prohibition? You took the time to fill out the card, argue with family, etc. and you don’t even know the basic history of that particular issue???
I’d say that the overlap between the narrower Christian sects - JW, 7DA, Mormon, the more outspoken SBC - and “worldly education” is pretty slim. Learned people aren’t likely to be swayed by narrow (and narrow-minded) interpretations of scripture; those deeply indoctrinated in a narrow faith aren’t likely to explore the larger world - or at least learn anything new from it.
Sure, I used to live across the street from a JW family. Quite a bright bunch. Dad was an engineer, kids were all going to university.
It is trivially easy to find a topic on which any given person will be found lacking in understanding, even topics that would seem to be close to them. I mean, honestly, what percentage of Catholics do you think really know the history of the Roman Catholic Church? I went to Catholic schools, I assure you we weren’t paying attention.
Being bright and highly educated in a focused specialty - such as engineering - doesn’t necessarily contradict anything that’s been said. If anything, it can reinforce the narrowness of viewpoint.
That said, I have an uncle who is an exceptional conversationalist, bright in the way that is a hallmark of that branch of the family and has good grasp of almost any news or historical topic you care to raise. Not bad for a Catholic priest who’s spent nearly all of the last 50 years in Haiti.
I met a pretty knowledgeable ex-JW once. Soem things he told me about the church were deeply disturbing – e.g., that since he’s ex-, JWs including his family can no longer talk to him.
There’s a JW couple who stop by our house regularly. Pepper Mill inviters them in for coffee or tea, they chat, and we get copies of The Watchtower and their other magazine. They always make a point to show us articles they think may be of interest (and know that I’m an engineer, writer, and interested in myths). I’m usually not around for these, but have been several times. They’re educated and interested.
Okay, I’m curious as to why you say JWs, 7DA (I’ve never seen it abbreviated that way before, by the way), Mormon, and SBC are “narrow” and “not being likely to explore the larger world”. Maybe you and I have different definitions of those terms. Could you explain what you mean? I can guess “narrow” as applied to the JWs would apply to their stance on transfusions. The other faiths you mention don’t have that stance.
My aunt has a Masters in Philosophy and can speak four languages fluently. She has been a JW for the last 40 years. She can rationally discuss everything EXCEPT her faith.
I know a PhD physical scientist, college professor. He is a smart guy and you can talk to him about scientific topics without knowing that he is a Jehovah’s Witness. He believes all of modern science including cosmology, etc; but also believes that the universe is 6,000 years old. He thinks god created it to look like it is 13.8 billion years old and that he is doing god’s work to figure out this puzzle that god created for us.
Yes. Spent a summer of Tuesday afternoons with a classics scholar who was doing JW service. I took a little Latin and Greek in college, and was challenging him about translations. Since I don’t read Hebrew he trumped me 99% of the time. He was unable to convince me to take the Bible Old Testament literally, so we parted amicably. It was kinda funny; the younger persons he brought with him, as they always seem to come in pairs, were usually glazed eyed bored by our discussions;)
My current JW contacts are not formally educated, but are among the most honorable and family oriented people I know. Additionally, for JW they are pretty open minded. No pushing, either.
Especially engineering in fact; I’ve read in the past that of the highly educated disciplines, engineering apparently has the most religious people and the most religious extremists (including religious terrorists). Engineers also tend to be more politically conservative.
As for why, no one is sure. My favorite hypothesis is that since engineering by nature focused on the practical questions of how to build and do things, it’s attractive to people who are highly intelligent and educated but who want to avoid subjects that will question their religious or political dogma. A creationist for example can go into engineering and for his whole career easily completely avoid any tasks that will undercut his creationism, while that’s far more difficult for, say, a doctor or biologist.
For a year or so I had a work colleague, a woman in her forties, who was a JW. She had an average secondary education, as in my country’s terms – no college or university – but was intelligent and lively-minded: well-informed in a self-taught way, about many secular subjects, and “into” a variety of interests and activities other than JW stuff – some of such doings, of a kind which the narrowly religious might tend to condemn as frivolous. Like Trinopus’s associate, she had not been brought up as a JW, but had come to the faith “under her own steam”, as an adult.
I got the impression that this lady had some unorthodox angles on JW matters, vis-a-vis the faith’s party line. For instance, she mentioned expecting that after death, she herself would be snuffed-out and in everlasting nothingness – which I have the impression is the fate which JWs see for all non-JWs; if I have things rightly, they reject the idea of hell = a place / state of eternal punishment. I’d have liked to discuss religious topics more with her; but our job was of a sort in which the majority of the time, we had to be strongly focused on the work – chatting opportunities were limited.
(By the way, is there a handy noun for the JW faith? “Jehovah’s-Witness-ism” feels quite intolerably clunky.)
Are you sure? I thought Witnesses believed that the Six Creation Days were 7000 years each, and that we are roughly 6000 years since Adam into the Seventh Day, so that the Universe is at least 48,000 years old.
The famous Philip Gosse, hero of Father and Son, was a member of the notorious obscurantist Plymouth Brethren, a sect so strict and weird it is amazing it didn’t expand into the 19th century American crazy. He also believed:
Thus, Gosse argued that the fossil record—even coprolites—might also be evidence of life that had never actually existed but which may have been instantly formed by God at the moment of creation.*
The general response was “as the Westminster Review put it, that Gosse’s theory was ‘too monstrous for belief.’” Even his friend, the novelist Charles Kingsley, wrote that he had read “no other book which so staggered and puzzled” him, that he could not believe that God had “written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for all mankind.”
Wiki
Even then, this was considered nutcase in religious Britain. However, earlier:
*In 1856 Gosse was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society, which, because he had no university position or inherited wealth, gave him “a standing he otherwise lacked.” *
In fact, during the next three years Gosse published more than thirty scientific papers and four books.
Gosse’s study specialized in birds, and Gosse has been called “the father of Jamaican ornithology.” With no racial prejudice, he easily hired black youths as his assistants, and his Jamaican books are full of praise for one of them, Samuel Campbell. For Christian companionship he enjoyed the company of Moravian missionaries and their black converts and preached regularly to the Moravian congregation.
He was the father of indoor aquaria, studied sea-life, snakes, Assyria and birds among other things, and must have been an all-round scientist. Few of us will ever do so much.
So long as I wouldn’t have to live alongside him, or any other religious, he was an admirable scientist. His beliefs did not preclude inquisitive intelligence
Isn’t the lack of highly educated Jehovah’s Witnesses simply a result of the Witness’s past discouragement of higher education? I know that they’ve since softened their stance, but for a long time going to college was seen as a waste of time and energy (that could be better spent on JW activities). It shouldn’t come as any surprise that the cultural views influenced the behavior of the members.
Mormons put a relatively high cultural importance on obtaining higher education, so it wouldn’t surprise me if American Mormons had a higher than average post-secondary education. It also doesn’t hurt they have a massive Mormon university system moving enormous numbers through all levels of education in a church-friendly manner.
It has everything to do with culture and nothing to do with the relative absurdity of the faiths.