(originally posted on the MPSIMS but soon realized it was more of a question tan anything else)
I was just wondering if there is some postulate somewhere out there that concerns the existence of Fate. I’ve been kicking around a few
ideas in my head about how one could prove such a thing… but I don’t really feel like writing anything out if its already been done.
Also, if it hasn't been proven anywhere that Fate may or may not exist, there are a couple things I'd like to know before attempting to
write about it. Such as, are there any RANDOM events in the universe; Does anything happen seemingly without cause, like a partical
that just suddenly shifts direction for the hell of it? And, scientifically, is human conciousness considered something intangible,
something that is above and beyond the workings of any chemicals in your brain? Or is human consciousness considered to be a direct
result of the various pieces of matter in your head?
Your “consciousness” question is a BIG question. Lots of potential for discussion/argument. For now I’ll just say, many people consider consciousness to be a direct result of the various pieces of matter in your head.
The randomness is easier. Radioactive decay. Statistically, particles are emitted at a certain rate, but the actual moment when a single particle is emitted is not determined.
But when such a ‘random’ partical has been emitted during radioactive decay, even though it may not be possible to predict the release, the release is CAUSED by something, is it not? We haven’t figured out what the specific cause is, but it exists nonetheless, right?
We DO know the specific cause: the laws of physics (which one, I dunno right now but scientists do know what causes radioactive decay). But that doesn’t mean that the event is not random, unless I am horribly mistaken (wouldn’t be the first time).
There are lots of random things that happen in real life. Many of them can be predicted for a large sample with surprising accuracy (for example the mortality tables that insurance companies use), but each event is still random, more or less.
But back to the OP, before I can attempt to answer this I need to know just what you mean by “fate.” If you simply mean something that will inevitably happen, then my answer is yes. There is fate. I’m fated to die eventually, for example. I’m pretty sure that’s not exactly what you mean by “fate,” though.
By Fate I mean every single action that takes place in the universe. Every birth of a star, every car collision, every thought in your head. Everything.
Things like mortality rates are unpredictable to us as humans because there are so many factors involved that determine the time of death for an individual. After someone has died, it is easy to retrace the steps which lead to this. eg. ‘The person drown in their sleep because their lungs filled with fluid, because they had pnemonia, which was a symptom of their lung cancer, which was caused by smoking, which was caused by peer pressure…’
But while were alive, death remains, for the most part, unpredictable because we don’t know if were going to get hit by a bus tomorrow or live for the next fifty years… we don’t know this because, as humans, we haven’t the capacity to caculate EVERY SINGLE FACTOR that would lead to your inevitable death. And im not just talking large scale events, like the smoking scenario. I’m speaking of ‘In New York, two atoms bump into one another causing this, then causing that, and then 50 years later a man in India dies because he tripped over some pottery and fell down a hill.’ Its the butterfly effect… a butterfly flaps its wings in Japan causing a thunder storm in california. Everything is related. And as unpredicatable and chaotic as the universe may seem, there is an underlying order to EVERYTHING. (That’s part of the Chaos Theory is it not?)
When one of those particles are emitted during radioactive decay, it was CAUSED by something, some reaction, some force, something that reacted with another thing causing the partical to fly away. There is just SO much to calculate, and SO much that we don’t know, that we must rely on probabilities and statistics in order to PREDICT the order of things. But for me, prediction isn’t enough.
Words like spontaneous combustion or spontaneous anything seem very stupid to me. There is no way that something just ‘decides’ to burst into flames. There was a CAUSE, there is always a cause…
at least, thats my understanding. I want to know if there are any proven exceptions to this. If in fact, something is out there that is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY random, without reason.
Not the kind of random he wants: Brownian motion is due to interaction with air molecules, which are bouncing off one another; your basic billiard-ball model.
Not that I’d know Chaos theory if I had breakfast with it. All I know of it is the extremely vague, and probably inaccurate, ramblings of Dr Malcolm in the Jurassic Park movie.
Yes, but every single action, every birth of a star, etc. does WHAT exactly? Follows a predetermined course throughout its life? Is drawn inevitably to some predetermined end (regardless of the path that it takes to get there)?
I ask again, what do you mean by fate?
Not so! Agreed, it is impossible to look at one individual and say “he will die next Tuesday at 11:34 AM as a result of the spontaneous combustion of an anally-inserted rodent,” but it IS entirely possible to look at a large population (say the population of the US) and say with great accuracy “of these 300,000,000 people: in the next year X% will die from cancer, X% will die from heart failure, X% will die as a result of traffic accidents, etc.” This is part of how insurance companies calculate policy costs…
I agree with this, in a way, but you chose badly when you used the word “decides.” AFAIK, nothing except a living being can decide anything. Spontaneous combustion DOES happen (at least to some things, such as a pile of oil-soaked rags, or a barn full of not-fully-dried hay bales) but the “spontaneous” here just means that the fire starts by itself, without any outside agent supplying heat. It is not random. It is the produce of a chemical reaction or the product of bacterial ingestion (IIRC).
Now, if it were possible to know absolutely EVERYTHING about the past history of an object, it might be possible to predict with some certainty what would happen to it in the next few milli-seconds… but after that, no. Knowing the past does not let you predict the future with any large degree of certainty.
I don’t think I agree that everything is related… for example, I seriously doubt that my lighting another cigarette has any effect on whether my sister in Pennslyvania itches her nose in her sleep a few seconds later…
Moderator Notes: Arthur, I moved your original MPSIMS post to Great Debates. Please don’t cross-post a question in the future: if you want a thread moved, ask a moderator.
I’ll leave it to manhattan to keep this one here or not. The other thread, now in Great Debates doesn’t seem to gather a lot of attention, so maybe that’s the one we need to close. I’ll consult my colleagues. But remember: don’t cross-post.
Why do you think that every thing has a cause? This seems to be an asumption on your part. Usually this is a pretty good asumption when thinking about things. Howver, for the topic of fate as you have defined it I think that this asumption is what you are tring to prove or disprove.
If everything has a cuase that implies to me that with a given state of the universe there is only one state that the universe can be in at a later time. Which means everything is fated.
You know, unless somebody knows exactly what will happen, the term “fate” is meaningless.
For example:
Let’s say that a butterfly’s wings flapping in Japan really do cause a hurricane in Florida. Wings moving particle A caused it to hit particle B and so on and so on until finally person Z gets killed by a tree that is blown over and through their house.
If no one is aware that this butterfly is going to lead to the death of Z, then it ain’t fate. It’s only fate if we know that the butterfly will kill Z ahead of time, Z leaves the state of Florida as a precaution, and gets run over by a bus in Omaha.
Fate is a metaphysical concept. Metaphysical concepts can not be proven or disproven in the physical world. If you prefer to believe in a predetermined universe (or God, or chi) go right ahead. However, don’t expect to be proven right anytime soon, but don’t worry about being proven wrong.
I’d like an example as to what such random events would be on the quantum level. (besides the one listed in the below statement)
I’ve read about these virtual particles, but my knowledge of them is limited to the reporting capacity of a Scientific American journalist. However, I do remember the article referring to a ‘certain point’ that these particles reach before they fade from our existence. I’m sure the cause of the dissapearances is explained far more extensively somewhere else besides a mainstream scientific magazine. Although the exact ‘cause’ may not known, I believe they are still searching for one, so this does not rule out the fact that everything may have a ‘cause’ for their actions. This article was about the idea of parallel universes, and the dissapearing particles were those travelling to the alternate world.
That’s a little dissapointing to hear, but I was sure the general idea right now that our conciousness is derrived from various chemicals and bits of matter in our body.
Because I simply cannot imagine that the pair of gloves sitting on my desk right now will simply lunge into the are, do a tripple lutz and fall back into its original position without any force or reason acting upon it.
Same for particles such as electrons… I cannot imagine that an electron will whip about radomly within its valance(?) shell… If we could measure the exact quanta of energy that atom possesses and where that energy is held, and if we could measure the exact distance the electron is from the nucleus, and if we could measure the current speed of the electron and whatever outside factors effecting the atom are, then it should be possible to predict with 100% accuracy where the elctron will be 100.27 years from now. But since every atom varies ever so slightly, and it would be pointless (and pretty much impossible) to spend the time finding the exact measurements for each atom, we have developed a way to predict the position of an electron through probability for all atoms in general. But just because we dont know every single factor that is effecting the electron, it does not mean that the factors are not there and that the factors are not effecting it.
I can’t imagine that an electron would simply resist the current forces acting upon it and move a little to the right just for the hell of it. I cannot see how that would happen.
That is my exact point. But the mystery of human conciousness must be solved before any conclusions about fate can begin to be developed.
If no one knows that person A will meet person B, and that they will fall in love, then by your definition these two people cannot, in the furture, attribute their meeting to fate. They must know ahead of time before they can say they were fated together. Which is not at all how the current perception of fate works. Sorry.
If fate were to somehow be proven, it would pose so many other questions, such as ‘does god exist’ and if so, ‘without free will, would we all suddenly be exempt from hell?’ etc. etc.
So I’d still like to know more about the ‘Random’ events that are supposedly out there, if any.
True, but its fun to play around with and think about. I mean, we have an ontological proof don’t we? I think thats cool. I’d like to see someone (try to )prove the existence of fate. You can chose to believe the proof or not.
please define Fate more clearly. As with most of these debates (and I think this in GD territory), the disagreement is largely over definitions.
How about this from Webster’s:
Essentially, what this is saying is that there is some thing that determines how things happen. Pretty darn vague. I think “the laws of physics” would fit just as well as “God” here.
As in every action that you do, everything that you bear witness to and those things that you never see, everything that you think, and every decision you make…
…is predtermined.
Everything thats going to happen, happens because its the way the universe works. Thats the fate I talk about. But I’d like to make something clear here… if anyone was to ever prove that such a Fate existed, I would choose not to believe in it Free will would become an illusion, and I don’t like that…
but scientists do know what causes radioactive decay). But that doesn’t mean that the event is not random, unless I am horribly mistaken (wouldn’t be the first time).