Mandela could use a fact checker, but his general sentiments are right in line with what a lot of government officials think, in Brussels and elsewhere.
This isn’t to say he’s correct, but he’s certainly not “bat-shit crazy.”
Open a history book. America has certainly done its share of atrocities, depending upon how you define them.
I happen to be in favor of at least two, dropping the atomic bombs on Japan, because they almost certainly ended the war sooner and without invasion. On the other hand we have the Vietnam War.
I’m not saying Mandela isn’t acting funny. But I do believe the facts are on are the side of those who choose call us (the U.S.) perpetrators of atrocities.
“But I do believe the facts are on are the side of those who choose call us (the U.S.) perpetrators of atrocities.”
Yeah, list some more, then, Gassendi. Like say, as compared to Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia or the NKVD-ruled post-war Hungary or Pol Pot or… well, I think you get the picture, n’est-ce pas? While no nation is blameless (because in my view, even neutrality can be potentially harmful in some situtations), I think the US has a solid history of helping more than hurting – her own people and those of other nations.
That is, we do not routinely and as part and parcel of our system of governmental use terror and violence to keep people in line at home, and conquer abroad. I believe that we fight wars reluctantly and as a last resort. I am keenly aware that the US has its flaws, but overall we have done more good than bad, or at the very least not as much bad as others.
Just my opinion, of course…
What is it with these great African liberation heroes going weird in their old age? First Mugabe, now this…
Hey, he’s 84 and I don’t know the context. I’ll cut him some slack. But as someone who lived most of his life under one of the most repressive regimes in the world, in the 20th century when Europe convulsed itself twice and Japan and China and Russia killed literally millions for stupid ideologies (communism, and this little insect fancier Hirohito is a God) and even Australia and Belgium managed to bother darker-skinned folks, I shudder to think what we Americans could have done to rate such bile from Mandela.
Anyway, the point is that rhetoric like this is not only wrong-headed but actually damaging since it comes from such a deservedly revered source. Such exaggeration does nobody any good but Saddam.
Who actually hear the speech? Maybe he said 6 to 4 percent?
Actually the more I think about, I’m pretty sure he meant 6 to 4 percent and with his South African accent it can easily be mistaken for 64, moreover this is just used as a ploy to make him look bad in light of his statements, which is something western journalist do not want to hear.
That is the fucking problem. Almost no one has heard the speech, but millions and millions have heard the selected quotes.:mad:
All those people know is that the great hero Nelson Mandela has made some very calm statements that the US is being arrogant and bad, and if you can’t trust him, well, who can you trust?
Fuck you to all of the people that still insist that the media is not left-wing biased.:mad:
If you think the media is left-wing biased, I would hate to see the right-wing biased media. That’s gotta be scary.
What on God’s Green Earth does this have to do with the liberal bias in media? Are you accusing liberals of distorting Nelson Mandela’s quotes to make him look bad? Or are we just cruelly mis-using him for our nefarious America-bashing agenda?
Muad’Dib, the CNN article freido gives the selected quote and then shows how off base his numbers really are.
Get a fucking grip.
Ding ding ding! I knew SOMEONE would post something like this, and Gassendi wins the title. This isn’t the Pit, and Creaky has already stolen my thunder in response to this, but I still want to reiterate some of what she said.
I think the key phrase in your post is “depending on how you define them.” How often have we deliberately slaughtered people as a matter of policy? Or left them to starve to death? We have certainly done hings that were unjust, unfair, even cruel. But that is still a long way from an “atrocity.”
And as for even calling using nuclear weapons on Japan an “atrocity,” well hindsight is 20-20, pal. No country at war with another, like th U.S. versus Japan in 1945, would spend billions developing a totally new type of weapon that had never been used and then not use it because it was “too cruel.”
And the Vietnam War an “atrocity”?! How is that? Maybe we tried too hard to prop up a corrupt regime, but that’s hardly equivalent to slaughtering the populace. I should think the hordes of South Vietnamese who tried to leave when the Communists came tells you who THEY thought the better option was.
Anyway, end of mini-rant. I just can’t stand America-bashing, even when it’s clothed in watered-down intellectual garb.
What Creaky and Lizard said. We’re far from perfect but “atrocities” is so inappropriate as to be offensive.
Hey, I just finished reading a magnificent book. It's called "Slaughterhouse Five" wah? this isn't Cafe Society? Then why the hell did I post this in here?
It's time we change our definition of hero. Ok your grandfather was a very brave man, a good patriot and I am sure a great guy. I don't want to hurt your feelings but murdering civilians (specially woman, children and old people like in Dresden, London,Liverpool, Rotterdam, Tokio, Hamburg or Hiroshima, to name a few cities) is hardly the thing on which heroes are made.
Of course you will reply (as lizard just did) that NAZIS TURNED PEOPLE INTO CANDLES. I will let Vonnegut answer that one: "I know, I know, I know".
You can all learn from our tragic History. Argentina a fairly peacefull country, never harmed anybody in the 70 left guerrillas wanted to turn our country into a new Colombia. A couple of Generals prevented this. The word dissapear used as a verb was probably invented by us. Were the left guerrillas innocent? Nope. Was that an excuse to to commit atrocities? Nope.
The sad fact, and this is for Lizard, is that you can’t compare atrocities. The Nazis were ugly, so were Argentinian dictators. So were americans in Vietnam or Nicaragua (to give two examples).
Yes and the word against Mexico or the war against Spain never really happened. I’ve just finished reading “The Proud Tower” by Barbara Touchman. You’ll get a chance to meet people like Teddy Roosevelt, Hearst or President Mckinley. You’ll will surprised how little relunctant they went to war against the Spanish Kingdom and how the betrayed the Philippines and their own country ideals.
“War against Mexico…” not word. My excuses.
I don’t know the specifics of RickJay’s grandfather’s war record, but you do know that there were more than a few bombing missions over Germany during World War II that only hit military targets, right?
Hey, I, for one, welcome our flaming tire wielding overlords.
Methinks you are confused.
Lizard! Whoa!
Gassendi said “In favor of…” when speaking about dropping the bomb…Calm down and re-read. It was atrocious; give respect to the 100,000 people that died. It was also necessary. More would have without it. Atrocious and necessary are not exclusive terms.
As for Vietnam, I think there has been enough debate to show that we did not handle that situation correctly, to put it lightly. We continued a losing battle merely for political posturing, not for any ethical gain.
Yes, I am firmly in the camp that we do more good than harm, but I do think we have done harm before. We are not perfect. But we do seem to have an ability to look at our mistakes and try to improve upon them. One only has to look at the former Yugoslavia and Afganistan to see how people can continue century old conflicts solely because they think they should. We don’t, we learn, we move on. This is a good thing.
And lieu, I’m sorry, but I don’t have to look much further back than Iran-Contra to believe that we can do atrocious things in the name of democracy. I surely hope we never do anything like that again.
-Tcat
err…“are exclusive terms…”
Mandela’s “musings” about the U.S. are indicative of why the U.N. needs to be kept at arms length.
Maybe the world would be better led by a coalition of marxists headed by a great “humanitarian” leader (?) Me no think so.
It’s nice when your enemies announce themselves.