I’m not a traitor, I’m the loyal opposition (long)

Tonight I had the misfortune of watching a few minutes of the O’Reilly Factor. I used to like Bill O’Reilly, I even read his book, which I thought offered many sensible social theories. But tonight Bill was discussing Harry Belafonte’s poorly selected remarks about Colin Powell, and he claimed that despite Belafonte’s assertion that he was first and foremost an American and has the US’s safety and prosperity always in his heart he is un-American for opposing the Bush administration and he is despicable for expressing it publicly. Granted the particular comment, which I won’t repeat, was improper, but O’Riley was not overly concerned with the comment itself; he was upset with the “dissenters.” It was all he could do to stop from spitting on the ground after saying the word. In his two-dimensional view anyone politically opposed to Bush’s ham fisted, saber rattling, foreign policy is a traitor, plain and simple. The whole thing stinks and it’s an epidemic across the nation. Its not the super-nationalism that most concerns me it’s the rejection of dissenters, frequently without cause. Haven’t these people ever heard of the loyal opposition? We’re not traitors, in fact many of us are just as concerned as the so-called patriots. And, it’s no help that the Democrats are cowards too concerned with re-election to stand up for their principles, if they actually have any.

The Bush philosophy, the philosophy much of this country has rapidly embraced is, “Either you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists.” That’s complete bullshit. I love my country and I’m sure as shit not going to side with extremist maniacs that killed thousands of its innocent civilians. But I’m not going to side with the two faced, hypocrites that have killed and subjugated innocent civilians either. And I don’t subscribe to the philosophy that all the good the US has done in the world somehow cancels out the bad. But, even though I won’t close my eyes to the injustices my country has perpetrated, it does not mean I’m un-American. It means I want to recognize problems and search for solutions to better protect my country. The same as Bush claims to be doing. My problems and solutions just differ from his.

I don’t believe it’s a matter of contention that the US has always had its finger in the Middle East pie along with the rest of the developed world. The worst despots, tyrants, thugs, criminals, and megalomaniacs in the world are ruling the Middle East and most of the third world for that matter. Imperialism by world superpowers spurred by oil or other resources, physical or political, have put them there. The Cold War can take some of the blame but simple economics were always a part of the equation. While he was Secretary of State Henry Kissinger once said, “Oil is too important a commodity to trust to the Arabs.” And I get funny looks for saying that oil is a factor in the War on Terror. A Greek historian, Thucydides, once said, “The strong do as they will in world affairs, while the weak suffer what they must." Therefore only nations of equal power treat each other justly and only because they must. That isn’t right and it should be outlawed. If the superpowers had any scruples whatsoever, any concern for human rights, justice, fairness, or morality they would give the UN the executive force to make its legislation more than just hollow ideals on paper. But, the major nations will never support such a thing, why give the UN the power to take precedence over their sovereignty? Why in the world would the US or any other nation take responsibility for crimes it has and can continue to get away with? Why allow Kashmir, Tibet, Taiwan, Palestine, or any other nation striving for independence beat the system. They are the weak and for the foreseeable future they will, “suffer what they must.” I think it would take a catastrophe greater than 9/11 to make a difference in international law. That in no way implies I want such a thing to happen just that I see no other way drastic reform of the UN system and authority will occur.

I’ve heard the counterpoint that not only was imperialism a necessary and accepted political tool for powerful nations during the time when most of the regime changes were taking place, but that without a secured flow and price of oil their economies would be in constant jeopardy. My rebuttal is, “We made our bed and now we have to sleep in it.” Those nations made choices, some worse than others, and like it or not we are now faced with the consequences of those choices. The sins of the father have come to bear. These terrorists are a symptom of a culture pushed to its breaking point by the intervention of foreign powers. The US claims they are simply violent, power mad, jealous, hate mongers, and refuses to own up to any wrong doing despite all the evidence against it (cite.) Until we do the terror attacks are only going to get worse. Attacking Iraq won’t solve anything. In fact it will most likely result in the fiercest guerilla attack yet from the radicals. Not because they care so greatly for Saddam or Iraq, but because they won’t stand for further hypocrisy for the sake of Arab oil.

Bush’s only strategy it seems is show he is being proactive in the War on Terror. Americans are divided on whether we should attack preemptively, but according to Gallop poles around 80 percent consistently show support for “some kind of action.” At the same time he can deflect attention from his insane deficit spending scheme that failed under Reagan, his conflict of interest in handling corporate malfeasance, and possibly help the economy by quadrupling oil production in Iraq, which is stifled by sanctions. What Bush doesn’t realize is that Islamic radicals are not going to take it sitting down. These people are pissed off for many reasons but the core of it all is that their civilization is impoverished and repressed and the US played a part in creating that fate by placing the necessity of oil above the values of democracy, freedom, and liberty we proclaim to the world. The other superpowers aren’t blameless either. GB, France, Germany, Russia, China and every other nation that relies on oil was playing for power in the Middle East. The Islamists themselves aren’t off the hook either. They fail to realize that their cause will never gain credibility in the West if they cannot maintain a moral authority that appears well beyond them at this point. They would do well to learn the lessons of Ghandi and MLK Jr.

Ultimately, I believe the radicals have to be made an example of and tired in the ICJ to show that civilian murder can never be seen as a promising political tool. Next, the monarchs and despots have to be removed by the UN on the grounds of human rights violations to their populations and the peoples of those lands must finally be permitted self-determination to institute any form of government they see fit, provided it is peaceable and embraces some form of rule of law and constitutionality. Its unfortunate, but I don’t have to tell you how unlikely this scenario is. Who knows if the American people will ever come to grips with the depths of the sordid misdeeds of their CIA and the Western world in general. They’ll go on waving their flags, reading their newspapers, congratulating themselves on our superiority, and lamenting the world’s bitter and petty jealousy. The bliss of ignorance, is it even my right to try and take it from anyone? Probably not, and its doubtful I could change their minds even if I tried. All I ask is that they do me the courtesy of recognizing that dissenters can be patriots, but even that simple request is offensive to them.

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
-Theodore Roosevelt

As for now, I’m just waiting for the shit to hit the fan.

You may be conflating two separate questions: (a) whether it’s appropriate to dissent from the President in a “time of war;” and (b) whether you like the President’s policies. I would suggest that by focusing as much as you do on issue (b) you detract a bit from possibly-interesting issue (a) (the answer to which shouldn’t necessarily depend on whether the President’s policies or politics are sort of okay with you, sort of not okay with you, or utterly repellent to you). I don’t take it you are suggesting that Bush is so transcendently wrong/evil that dissent is the <only> moral option; therefore, it seems your thesis would better take the form of “Can’t reasonable people still differ on strategy and tactics for responding to a recognized problem?” Because if you could prove that Bush and O’Reilly and “their” crowd were truly trying to deny this possibility, I think you’d have convinced more people of the unfairness of this than you will convince to adopt your particular politics.

Another way to look at this would be: Would the “Bush crowd” (whatever that is) seek to quash/deny legitimacy of <any> dissenting position or tactical difference, regardless of general political or party orientation of the dissenter? <That> would be even more compelling proof that there’s more than just partisan name-calling involved. I’d be interested in hearing from any avowed rightist who feels his opinions/policies/voice on these issues is being denied legitimacy or accused as disloyal because different.

Right, because we all know everywhere America hasn’t interfered there has been democracy, freedom, and liberty. :wink:

Secondly, there is no way a country will ever simply accept something like, “Well, we’ve made this mess, might as well just grin and bear it.” Even a monarch who didn’t (in principle) have to listen to his citizens would say this: all nations are both reactive and intervensionist in things that they feel to be a part of. Why else would there even be a UN?

So now we’ve summed it up: when we consider all the parties that bear responsibility here we come up with the entire human fucking race.

So, square one.

Of course, this wouldn’t be done on an already-critiqued platform of pre-emptive strikes, would it? And how do you suppose Ghandi and MLK would advise the UN to do this?

I don’t believe that there is any concerted effort on the right to quash dissent. I think there have been a (very) few politicians who have regrettably tried to label opposition “un-American” as a political tactic, and this I disagree with. Disagreement is extremely healthy to the political process, and is how this country is, and should be, run.

However, there have been a few individuals on the left whose actions are, while maybe not un-American or traitorous, certainly narrow-minded, in poor taste, and thoroughly stupid. The most prominent example of this is Cynthia McKinney, who, immediately after the attacks of 9/11, suggested that Bush knew all about the attacks, and had deliberately done nothing so that he could start a war, and create profit for his friends with military contracts. I’m sorry, but that’s not dissent - it’s paranoid ignorance, and does nothing to help this country.

Further, I think the “you’re with us or against us” line that Bush proposed was not speaking to his policies directly, but rather our nation as a whole. Either you support the US in it’s goal of eliminating terrorism (though not necessarily our methods), or you are considered an enemy. This, I believe, mainly specifies that no nation can aid and abet terrorists, and then claim, “Well, we’re neutral, so you can’t hold us responsible for any terrorists that happen to be hanging out with us.” Kinda like the laws in the US against housing a criminal.

Bottom line, though, there’s plenty of argument going on in this country, and neither side is being stifled. Anyone on the left who says that nobody can say anything criticizing the president, open a newspaper - the New York Times is a perfect example. You can’t read two paragraphs without seeing someone say, “Bush is a boob.” Maureen Dowd in particular can’t go two sentences without criticizing him. Anyone on the right who makes similar claims of censure is grossly ignorant of reality, as well.
Jeff

I don’t believe that there is any concerted effort on the right to quash dissent. I think there have been a (very) few politicians who have regrettably tried to label opposition “un-American” as a political tactic, and this I disagree with. Disagreement is extremely healthy to the political process, and is how this country is, and should be, run.

However, there have been a few individuals on the left whose actions are, while maybe not un-American or traitorous, certainly narrow-minded, in poor taste, and thoroughly stupid. The most prominent example of this is Cynthia McKinney, who, immediately after the attacks of 9/11, suggested that Bush knew all about the attacks, and had deliberately done nothing so that he could start a war, and create profit for his friends with military contracts. I’m sorry, but that’s not dissent - it’s paranoid ignorance, and does nothing to help this country.

Further, I think the “you’re with us or against us” line that Bush proposed was not speaking to his policies directly, but rather our nation as a whole. Either you support the US in it’s goal of eliminating terrorism (though not necessarily our methods), or you are considered an enemy. This, I believe, mainly specifies that no nation can aid and abet terrorists, and then claim, “Well, we’re neutral, so you can’t hold us responsible for any terrorists that happen to be hanging out with us.” Kinda like the laws in the US against housing a criminal.

Bottom line, though, there’s plenty of argument going on in this country, and neither side is being stifled. Anyone on the left who says that nobody can say anything criticizing the president, open a newspaper - the New York Times is a perfect example. You can’t read two paragraphs without seeing someone say, “Bush is a boob.” Maureen Dowd in particular can’t go two sentences without criticizing him. Anyone on the right who makes similar claims of censure is grossly ignorant of reality, as well.
Jeff

cainxinth, your interesting OP has provoked some excellent responses. I will add (or emphasize) a few points:[ul][li]You appear to be comparing the US to some hypothetical ideal, which it naturally fails to meet. I recommend that you compare the US foreign policy with other actual countries. You’ll find that we match up rather well, morally. Advocating that the strong countries give their power to the UN is pointless, for two reasons. First of all, they aren’t going to do it. As Thucydides pointed out, the powerful will do as they want; they aren’t going to cede that power. You might as well rail against the law of gravity. Secondly, there’s no reason to believe that the UN would do a good job with all that power. Their record isn’t that great.[/ul]You blame the US for the economic failure of many nations. I disagree. On the contrary, the US has given more foreign aid than any other nation – both directly and through the World Bank. It has welcomed the world’s citizens to study here. It has promoted democracy, although, I agree that the US has sometimes propped up dictators for strategic reasons. However, in Iran and in Cuba, when the US’s chosen dictator was overthrown, the situation got even worse. In Chile, the military junta suppported by the US paved the way for a prosperous democracy. [/li]
I would echo the point already made that the OP is wide-ranging. It would help if you would outline what you consider your main points.

In Iran, the situation only “got worse” for a fairly brief period. It has been “getting better” for well over fifteen years. (It has a long way to go, but it is not regressing–except when Dubya makes stupid statements about the “axis of evil” that compels moderates to side with the extremists in defense of their own country.)

In Cuba, the U.S. wanted Batista removed. We simply ignored what Castro (to whom we supplied aid) looked like until he took power and began doing everything he had said he would do when we were helping him.

Chile was the most democratic and most prosperous nation in South America for well over 100 years when the U.S.-supported sabotage of their economy was used as the excuse to overthrow the government. The democracy and economy of Chile has simply returned to the tradition they had maintained before we interupted their lives.

Well it seems once again, I’ll be defending my theories by myself. Somehow I always manage to alienate everyone. Ah well.

I agree that in my fervor I did muddle up my thesis and mixed together those two points. But, I don’t think it’s out of the question to combine the two. I don’t think its ever inappropriate to dissent from the President, in times of war especially so, and as you may have guessed I am actively dissenting with the current president and his policies. Also, I wasn’t implying that there was some form of institutionalized rejection of dissent just that in my day to day life as well as what I see and read in the media I am often confronted with voices that express dismay and anger over my dissent. I’ve been called a traitor and un-American and its simply not the case. I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything, I just don’t want to be scorned for expressing my alternative view.

Ultimately, that’s none of my concern. For all I know the democratically elected ruler of Iran, the Mossedeq, who was removed by the CIA and replaced with the Shah, would have been no less oppressive to his people. But had that been the case the Iranians would have no reason to blame us.

Yes, I agree. I made that point, and I think it’s a damn shame.

**

So, if everyone has done some good and some bad they should be recognized for both. But, as we’ve both said that just aint gonna happen because only the strong make the rules.

**

Its not pre-emptive, its reactive. Rulers who have flaunted UN sanctions because the UN has no power would be taken to task if the UN were to receive the power that we both agree it never will. I never said I was being realistic; I’m just expressing my sources of ideological agitation.

Full agreement there.

In some regards I agree, however those other nations aren’t trying to play the role of the moral authority of the world.

That shifts the debate to the effectiveness and ethicality of the GATT, IMF, and World Bank. I’ll save that for another thread.

I also mentioned that I do not believe that the good things we have done cancel out the bad. And for every nation where we have improved the quality of life there are 10 where we didn’t.

Often times because, especially in the west, the government and mindset that made these poor choices are no longer present when the reverberations strike, you know?

We don’t sit and wallow in our parent’s pollution, we clean it, you see what I mean?

Of course they do! Else who else would enforce them?

My point was that the greats you cited as an ideological waypoint would have nothing to do with the suggestion to forcibly go remove these people from power.

cainxinth, it looks to me as if you are anti-American. I use that word as a descriptor, not a pejorative. You tend to see the US in a bad light.

Your last sentence above sets a remarkable standard. Why should a country inprove the life of any other country? Most never have. Yet you fault the US for failing to improve the quality of life for every country on earth.

I invite you to support your first sentence. I’d say, offhand, that the US has improved the quality of life for:[ul][li]Just about everyone one earth, by helping to defeat the fascists in WWII[]Japan and Germany, by installing effective democracies.[]Eastern Europe and Western Europe, by taking the lead in winning the Cold War.[]Many European nations, via the Marshall Plan[]Many poor nations, via our contributions to the World Bank and IMF[]Afganistan, by getting rid of the Taliban government.[]South Korea, by saving them from the fate of North Korea.[/ul]I could add to the list, but that’s a good start.[/li]
cainxinth, you say the bad things cancel out all these good things. OK, here’s your invitation to support your statement. Please list these bad things, and explain why they cancel out so much good.

cainxinth, I have to agree with december. Your ability to use critical thinking skills and apply those stanards to your own country make you “anti-American”. Equal protection under international laws is something for us to enjoy, not extend to others. You are a traitor, a commie, a pinko, a – gasp – liberal! International law is something that applies to nations other than American, or didn’t you know that?

Please vilify yourself, and report to your local train yard for cattle car transport to the local “work and re-education” camp.

But isn’t the point that we don’t have cattle car transport and work and re-education camps? Or are you saying we do? And (not to hijack or start a separate debate), Cecil’s current column does suggest that “commies” have been at least as enthusiastic in suppressing dissent with cattle cars and re-education and liquidation as have the Bush/Hitler crowd (I’ll lump them all in together arguendo).

And if you’re proving that dissent isn’t tolerated only by using hyperbole, you’re sort of . . . not proving it?

I will agree that all else being equal, the American “left” (whatever that is) has more frequently found the “disloyalty” card played against it (for either sincere or purely partisan motives) than has the “right.” There are a number of reasons for this, chief among them likely being that many (not all) liberals have found themselves less than wholly enthusiastic about the concept of nationalism, and nationalism (for better or worse) has been one of the animating themes of nation states (and specifically the U.S.) for much of its history.

That said, you also get the occasional dopey American (I use the term advisedly, as you’ll see) who insists on provoking the nationalist/patriot wing by criticizing the U.S. on foreign soil – and with no statistical proof handy, I’ll still venture to say that indignant liberal activists are more likely to engage in this sort of behavior (which probably does approach what most of us would commonly understand as “disloyal” – i.e., airing dirty laundry amongst strangers) than are indignant conservative activists.

See, e.g., the trenchant London-originating commentary of W. Harrelson, who’s apparently indignant the U.S. isn’t solving the War On Terror through hemp or something:

Sparticus, how is that representative of what december said?

Is that any excuse? As long as most Americans and even many American policy makers are ignorant or apathetic of the transgressions of their predecessors the problem is only going to escalate. Bush and the Americans that support him have taken the stance that they will not be held accountable and hence the only recourse is bloodshed and strife. Bush is literally putting millions of lives at risk rather than make the bold and honorable move to lead the world in addressing the repercussions of imperialism and self-interested intervention.

I don’t follow exactly; this seems somewhat contradictory to your previous statement. Could you explain?

My improbable solution is for the powerful nations to voluntarily give the UN the executive power to enforce its legislature and judiciary, founded on a super-state social contract/ constitution based on the UN charter and supplementary documents.

I appreciate the distinction, but you’ve only heard me speak about the negative aspects of the US. I’m a political science student, I’m very familiar with the positive accomplishments of the US and I respect it for them. However, as I said before I cannot and will not allow myself to revel in our achievements whilst our failures get swept under the rug. Besides, doesn’t it seem rather odd to hear an “un-american” frequently proclaim his desire to protect and improve America?

You have it absolutely backwards. I don’t fault America for failing to improve any other country, I fault America for the numerous instances were it has intervened in its own interest and negatively affected another nation, often with quite long lasting and drastic results.

First, I never said that. Our misconduct doesn’t cancel out the good we’ve done any more than the good cancels it out. Second, the list is so extensive it would take a long time to write it all down. Luckily someone has already done it for me. The following are excerpts from the book “Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions” by William Blum

“It was in the early days of the fighting in Vietnam that a Vietcong officer said to his American prisoner: ‘You were our heroes after the War. We read American books and saw American films, and a common phrase in those days was ‘to be as rich and as wise as an American’. What happened?’ An American might have been asked something similar by a Guatemalan, an Indonesian or a Cuban during the ten years previous, or by a Uruguayan, a Chilean or a Greek in the decade subsequent. The remarkable international goodwill and credibility enjoyed by the United States at the close of the Second World War was dissipated country by country, intervention by intervention.”
-William Blum

Normally I wouldn’t cite from an aol member page, but this is the authors homepage and its extensively referenced.

INDONESIA 1957-1958
ECUADOR 1960 to 1963
CUBA 1959 to 1980s
URUGUAY 1964 to 1970
GUATEMALA 1962 to 1980s
ANGOLA 1975 to 1980s
BULGARIA 1990/ALBANIA 1991
IRAQ 1990-1991
AFGHANISTAN 1979-1992
HAITI 1986-1994

Further excerpts published by The Third World Traveler

CAMBODIA 1955-1973
THE CONGO 1960-1964
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1960-1966
EAST TIMOR 1975
EL SALVADOR 1980-1994
GRENADA 1979-1984
IRAN 1953
NICARAGUA 1981-1990

This is everything I could find online, but only a portion of the total list.