Has religion been a net good or bad thing for humanity?

Great Debates
61

I have always considered religion as a vestige from the days when people lived in tribal communities. Where those members of the tribe who wanted to impose control over others did so by promoting the idea of a ‘supreme being’ and convincing the others that they alone had (more direct) communication with and therefore represented said being(s). Obviously this could serve both good & bad purposes, controlling bad behaviour on one hand, but at the same time allowing those ‘in power’ to behave any way they like in the name of the supreme being.

I have never been able to find a logical basis for the modern continuation of this practice, except in the areas of the world where tribal lifestyles are still mainly the norm. Hence, you have large pockets of the world that hate other areas because they continue to be subjugated by these practices and encouraged to believe that this is what the ‘supreme being’ wants them to do?

Some of my family members are quite religious and while I don’t hold their beliefs against them, I do consider them rather silly and superstitious. A good illustration of this point was made when I went (reluctantly) to a religious summer camp with some in-laws recently. They, being catholic, declined to participate in the ‘communion’ service with the other family members because, as they declared, “we are not part of your religious community and to participate would be offensive to our particular religion”. That, to me, was the true representation of the division that religion has caused, and continues to cause in this world.

62

[QUOTE=DaveLister]
I have always considered religion as a vestige from the days when people lived in tribal communities. Where those members of the tribe who wanted to impose control over others did so by promoting the idea of a ‘supreme being’ and convincing the others that they alone had (more direct) communication with and therefore represented said being(s). Obviously this could serve both good & bad purposes, controlling bad behaviour on one hand, but at the same time allowing those ‘in power’ to behave any way they like in the name of the supreme being.

I have never been able to find a logical basis for the modern continuation of this practice, except in the areas of the world where tribal lifestyles are still mainly the norm. Hence, you have large pockets of the world that hate other areas because they continue to be subjugated by these practices and encouraged to believe that this is what the ‘supreme being’ wants them to do?

Some of my family members are quite religious and while I don’t hold their beliefs against them, I do consider them rather silly and superstitious. A good illustration of this point was made when I went (reluctantly) to a religious summer camp with some in-laws recently. They, being catholic, declined to participate in the ‘communion’ service with the other family members because, as they declared, “we are not part of your religious community and to participate would be offensive to our particular religion”. That, to me, was the true representation of the division that religion has caused, and continues to cause in this world.
[/QUOTE]

Religion is filled with dogma and tradition that people often give meaning. My favorite saying concerning that phenomenon is “We are drawn to the light but we worship the lamp” It’s an unfortunate part of our humanity that can be seen in lots of other formats. Nationalism for one.

Religion is also a vehicle for introspection and growth. This leads to personal growth, growth within the group, growth within a society. I’m looking forward to the time when personal introspection and growth becomes more of the focus rather than the dogma and traditions of particular religious sects. It is our nature to use labels and ceremony. Some form of structure. The mistake is to cling to labels and ceremony as if they were crucial factors. They’re not. We need to learn that we can allow the different forms and still honor the principles they seek to promote.

63

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Of course you can. Religion produces evil and stupidity that would not exist without it. It encourages and excuses the evil and stupidity that would exist without it, making them worse. And it produces no good that could not be accomplished without it.

Government is necessary, and does far more good than harm. There are societies that do quite well with religion reduced to trivia; societies where government is that weak are called “failed states” and are hellholes. Governments are far superior to religions, both morally and practically.

And as always happens, they will fade into irrelevancy, or resurge into their more vital, dogmatic and intolerant forms. Religion by nature and necessity is dogmatic; hostile to all but itself. It cannot survive for long in a tolerant form, since reality itself is hostile to it, because it’s simply wrong.
[/QUOTE]

Oh DT you haven’t lost the magic that makes me chuckle :slight_smile:

64

My feeling is that religion has caused infinite more harm than good, be it Christianity, Buddhism, Islam or whatever. You can dress it up as pretty as you like, but base superstition is base superstition, period. If you’re lucky, religion at best acts to stifle innovation. The usual scenario, though, is the aforementioned persecution, religious wars, forced conversions etc. It saddens me to think how far advanced we could be today if religion had never reared its ugly had.

It’s all very well to say that people are evil and stupid and would act in a similar manner anyway, but in my view religion acts to fuels such evil and stupidity. You can say that religious-based support groups like AA are the most helpful ones (although I have my doubts about this), but I would point out that such groups affect a minuscule percentage of mankind, and anyway secular groups might do just as good given the chance, who knows?

No, I have no truck with religion whatsoever. It’s just a nasty business overall.

65

Siam Sam: Let’s replace “religion” with “humans” and see what happens in a speech made by Zorlok at the Intergalactic House of Pancakes and Khpunns:

My feeling is that humans have caused infinitely more harm than good, be it europeans, africans, asians or whatever. You can dress it up as pretty as you like, but flawed species are flawed species, period. If you’re lucky, humans at best act to stifle innovation. The usual scenario, though, is the aforementioned racial persecution, human wars of agression, forced treaties etc. It saddens me to think how far advanced the galactic federation could be today if humans had never reared their ugly head .

It’s all very well to say that all the federation members are evil and stupid and would act in a similar manner anyway, but in my view humans act to fuel such evil and stupidity. You can say that human-based support groups like hippies are the most helpful ones (although I have my doubts about this), but I would point out that such groups affect a minuscule percentage of mankind, and anyways, tentacled robot species like the nohitos might do just as well given the chance, who knows?

No, I have no truck with humans whatsoever. It’s just a nasty species overall.

66

Well, that’s very cute, but I’m not sure what it has to do with anything. :confused:

67

[QUOTE=Gozu]
Siam Sam: Let’s replace “religion” with “humans” and see what happens in a speech made by Zorlok at the Intergalactic House of Pancakes and Khpunns:

My feeling is that humans have caused infinitely more harm than good, be it europeans, africans, asians or whatever. You can dress it up as pretty as you like, but flawed species are flawed species, period. If you’re lucky, humans at best act to stifle innovation. The usual scenario, though, is the aforementioned racial persecution, human wars of agression, forced treaties etc. It saddens me to think how far advanced the galactic federation could be today if humans had never reared their ugly head .

It’s all very well to say that all the federation members are evil and stupid and would act in a similar manner anyway, but in my view humans act to fuel such evil and stupidity. You can say that human-based support groups like hippies are the most helpful ones (although I have my doubts about this), but I would point out that such groups affect a minuscule percentage of mankind, and anyways, tentacled robot species like the nohitos might do just as well given the chance, who knows?

No, I have no truck with humans whatsoever. It’s just a nasty species overall.
[/QUOTE]

Hey - good one. Let’s try replacing ‘humans’ with dogs, or cats, or maybe trees. No wait - HYENA’s that’s the species that causes so much trouble. Or maybe it’s free will?

68

[QUOTE=DaveLister]
Hey - good one. Let’s try replacing ‘humans’ with dogs, or cats, or maybe trees. No wait - HYENA’s that’s the species that causes so much trouble. Or maybe it’s free will?
[/QUOTE]

Or cockroaches. I squash cockroaches. Perhaps I’ve been angering the cockroach gods?

69

[QUOTE=fessie]
Show me someplace on this planet where a belief system is in charge.
[/QUOTE]

How about the United States of fucking America? I think the fact that an atheist has zero chance of being elected president in the 21st century despite intelligence, experience, integrity or ability is testament to the fact that some kind of belief system is in charge.

70

[QUOTE=Hogwash]
How about the United States of fucking America? I think the fact that an atheist has zero chance of being elected president in the 21st century despite intelligence, experience, integrity or ability is testament to the fact that some kind of belief system is in charge.
[/QUOTE]

Not only that, but anyone openly atheist or agnostic faces outright suspicion or even hatred (even from former friends and family) regarding their patriotism and moral character, regardless of what else is known about them.

71

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I don’t agree with any of your post. Religion was not created to control and subvert, but to inspire, and teach love. Religion has been found in every culture in the world, at least some form of it. Michelangelo would not have lost his skills there would have been no incentive for him to develop them. Yes, despite the hypocrites, religious people are more in tune with moral issues. Everything good could continue to exist. but without a venue I doubt it would be as good. Mankind as a whole has always looked for a higher power for inspiration and guidance. We don’t seem to be able to get alone without a “higher authority.” The common good, and mankind will continue to look forever. There is nothing to replace the “odd man out” in a controversy, and that man has become God. But the most compelling argument is, “if we didn’t need religion it would not have come about.” Mankind builds those things it needs to progress and religion is one of them.
[/QUOTE]
For the sake of clarification, do you also disagree with the part of my post that says “diversity for the sake of diversity has no intrinsic value”?

At any rate, yes, it seems we two think completely differently. To me, the fact that religion can convince its followers its sole purpose is to “inspire, and teach love” just makes it a more powerful tool (cosmosdan: I agree that the people who use the tool are just as important as the tool itself). Religion demands from its followers the strongest–and therefore the most foolish–form of faith. Every “true” believer is sure, as sure as the sun will rise, that he knows the truth and others are misguided. Religion is the only human invention that can give people that kind of absolute self righteousness, and imo that is what makes it more powerful than say, governments whose members get elected periodically.

You claim that religion is some kind of “venue” for all the good things in us, but I also challenge that. There are secular counterparts to anything great you can attribute to religion–religion is not a prerequisite for *any *of the good things in life: good movies, the warm fuzzy feeling you get from doing right, the warm fuzzy feeling you get from looking at evangeline lilly in a wet t shirt, a good back rub, uninhibited no strings attached sex with gasp contraceptives (disclaimer: I’m speaking on hearsay on this one :frowning: and am still waiting for the day the stars align 18th birthday pleas please please), the list goes on.
It should only take two minutes on your local contemporary christian rock station for you to understand that divine inspiration alone can’t create good things :stuck_out_tongue: .

Assuming that people can never get along without a higher authority, I still contend that a governing body consisting of mere mortals should be enough. When that higher authority becomes invisible, intangible–hell–incomprehensible, omnipotent yet by all accounts incompetent, a misogynistic manipulative monster one moment and loving shepherd of his people the next…one would think only loons would believe, even lay their lives down, for such a character.

these two sentences honestly make no sense to me whatsoever. And you go on to state “if we didn’t need religion it would not have come about.” as if this were some ingenious leap of logic that was supposed to blow me over. It isn’t, and it didn’t. Here’s why: religion needn’t have been beneficial to all of humanity to have come about, it need only benefit the small number of people who are in the know and in control. L Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones, and Charles Manson all saw how powerful blind faith could be and took advantage of it. Scientology did not come about because it would be of maximum benefit to its members.

72

[QUOTE=Gozu]
Siam Sam: Let’s replace “religion” with “humans” and see what happens in a speech made by Zorlok at the Intergalactic House of Pancakes and Khpunns:

My feeling is that humans have caused infinitely more harm than good, be it europeans, africans, asians or whatever. You can dress it up as pretty as you like, but flawed species are flawed species, period. If you’re lucky, humans at best act to stifle innovation. The usual scenario, though, is the aforementioned racial persecution, human wars of agression, forced treaties etc. It saddens me to think how far advanced the galactic federation could be today if humans had never reared their ugly head .

It’s all very well to say that all the federation members are evil and stupid and would act in a similar manner anyway, but in my view humans act to fuel such evil and stupidity. You can say that human-based support groups like hippies are the most helpful ones (although I have my doubts about this), but I would point out that such groups affect a minuscule percentage of mankind, and anyways, tentacled robot species like the nohitos might do just as well given the chance, who knows?

No, I have no truck with humans whatsoever. It’s just a nasty species overall.
[/QUOTE]
Hey Zorlock I totally agree with you!

…but you do promise to transplant my brain into a tentacled robot nohito body after the human purge is over right?

73

[QUOTE=Hogwash]
How about the United States of fucking America? I think the fact that an atheist has zero chance of being elected president in the 21st century despite intelligence, experience, integrity or ability is testament to the fact that some kind of belief system is in charge.
[/QUOTE]

I think what it means is that human FEAR is in charge.

74

[QUOTE=Mojo Pin]
(cosmosdan: I agree that the people who use the tool are just as important as the tool itself). Religion demands from its followers the strongest–and therefore the most foolish–form of faith. Every “true” believer is sure, as sure as the sun will rise, that he knows the truth and others are misguided. Religion is the only human invention that can give people that kind of absolute self righteousness, and imo that is what makes it more powerful than say, governments whose members get elected periodically.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe it is the only. Nationalism seems to be just as bad. Leaders appeal to patriotism and fear to manipulate the public in much the same way a corrupt religious leader would. On some people it works and on others it doesn’t. I don’t have any numbers but my guess is there are at least as many people who embrace their beliefs while allowing others the freedom of different beliefs as those who are as sure as you describe.
Man, I’ve seen people argue to the point of violence over all kinds of crazy stuff. I don’t think the true believers you speak of are the majority in religion, although I recognize they exist.

75

[QUOTE=Hogwash]
How about the United States of fucking America? I think the fact that an atheist has zero chance of being elected president in the 21st century despite intelligence, experience, integrity or ability is testament to the fact that some kind of belief system is in charge.
[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t aware of the widespread ignorance and suspicion about atheism and atheists until I read a discussion on this board. We’ve seen atheism begin to assert itself. I think it will only get better from now on. Unfortunately, for now, ignorance is still more common. Like womens rights and other issues, that will change in time.

76

[QUOTE=Mojo Pin]
For the sake of clarification, do you also disagree with the part of my post that says “diversity for the sake of diversity has no intrinsic value”?

At any rate, yes, it seems we two think completely differently. To me, the fact that religion can convince its followers its sole purpose is to “inspire, and teach love” just makes it a more powerful tool (cosmosdan: I agree that the people who use the tool are just as important as the tool itself). Religion demands from its followers the strongest–and therefore the most foolish–form of faith. Every “true” believer is sure, as sure as the sun will rise, that he knows the truth and others are misguided. Religion is the only human invention that can give people that kind of absolute self righteousness, and imo that is what makes it more powerful than say, governments whose members get elected periodically.

You claim that religion is some kind of “venue” for all the good things in us, but I also challenge that. There are secular counterparts to anything great you can attribute to religion–religion is not a prerequisite for *any *of the good things in life: good movies, the warm fuzzy feeling you get from doing right, the warm fuzzy feeling you get from looking at evangeline lilly in a wet t shirt, a good back rub, uninhibited no strings attached sex with gasp contraceptives (disclaimer: I’m speaking on hearsay on this one :frowning: and am still waiting for the day the stars align 18th birthday pleas please please), the list goes on.
It should only take two minutes on your local contemporary christian rock station for you to understand that divine inspiration alone can’t create good things :stuck_out_tongue: .

Assuming that people can never get along without a higher authority, I still contend that a governing body consisting of mere mortals should be enough. When that higher authority becomes invisible, intangible–hell–incomprehensible, omnipotent yet by all accounts incompetent, a misogynistic manipulative monster one moment and loving shepherd of his people the next…one would think only loons would believe, even lay their lives down, for such a character.

these two sentences honestly make no sense to me whatsoever. And you go on to state “if we didn’t need religion it would not have come about.” as if this were some ingenious leap of logic that was supposed to blow me over. It isn’t, and it didn’t. Here’s why: religion needn’t have been beneficial to all of humanity to have come about, it need only benefit the small number of people who are in the know and in control. L Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones, and Charles Manson all saw how powerful blind faith could be and took advantage of it. Scientology did not come about because it would be of maximum benefit to its members.
[/QUOTE]

In all things we may look at the negative or the positive side and say “this is what religion is like.” We would be wrong on both accounts, life is neither positive or negative but an integration of parts of all that is. Look at the overall picture in order to determine whether something is needed and/or useful. You will find there is room for all things in this world, each having a purpose and meaning otherwise it would not be.

77

[QUOTE=Hogwash]
How about the United States of fucking America? I think the fact that an atheist has zero chance of being elected president in the 21st century despite intelligence, experience, integrity or ability is testament to the fact that some kind of belief system is in charge.
[/QUOTE]

This is probably true, atheism is a kind of unknown. People don’t like not knowing whether someone has morals, integrity, and honesty. It’s not always true that someone professing to believe in God has morals, integrity, and honesty. Just look upon it as as a job requirement.

78

I am going to just snipe this just to say that this topic generally irritates me. As religion has been ubiquitous for most of history, we cannot know one way or the other.

79

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Everywhere there is religion. Religion consumes people, turns them into puppets. Some other beliefs as well, but religion is the worst.

Beliefs aren’t passive things; they are active patterns of activity in the brain, always influencing the judgment of their human host. Religious beliefs are excellent at subverting people, often to the point that the belief runs them. It is the psychological equivalent of a virus, subverting the people it infects in order to make them it’s tools. The more religious someone is, the more they are just a puppet.

[/quote]

I am a Christian believer, and I’m far from a puppet. Granted, there are those who prefer to be puppets - that significantly reduces the doubt about one’s actions. The world demands judgment, not black/white, yes/no responses. There are many who want such definitive choices, and there are certainly many who use religion as a means to control those who want to believe. But saying that is true of all religions or all religious people is just as simplistic and unrealistic view of the world.

People do stupid and/or evil things for many reasons. Sometimes - perhaps most of the time - those reasons are wrapped in flags, faiths, or creeds, as you have pointed out. People do these things because they want power over someone else. Religion, racism, sexism, communism, etc. are organizing themes that help them do that. But most religions, at their core, do not call for such behavior. I don’t see how anyone can say that a person who follows the words of Jesus or the Buddha is working to foment evil in the world. I do see how people who decide to follow the words of others who have interpreted the Buddha or Jesus can move toward evil or stupid behaviors, and clearly many have done so.

I would heartily recommend reading through Thomas Cahill’s books that followed “How the Irish Saved Civilization.” They might get a bit preachy for non-believers, but they do show how religion - primarily Christianity, Judaism, and Islam in his writings - provided some very fundamental parts of current Western philosophies, and how they also incorporated other philosophies (such as the Greeks’) into their own.

On the whole, I would have to say that religion has been a net positive. I find it hard to look at where democratic governments have developed over the past 1000 years and say that there is no link between the areas in which the organized (and reformed) church has been strongest and the areas in which the democracies flourished.

80

[QUOTE=fessie]
Because PEOPLE are stupid and evil. And noble and loving.
WE are ALL of these things.
We commit these acts as members of groups (religious, political, ethnic) because that is how we are.
[/quote]
That’s ridiculous. People need motivations to do things. Are you actually claiming that if religion vanished, people who fight over religion and have no other reason to fight would just keep on doing so ? Just attack people who in a religious alternate universe would be of another religion, but now are just random people ?

[QUOTE=fessie]
If it wasn’t “us” doing it, then religion really WOULD be an outside force imposed by (God?) (the IPU?), in which case you couldn’t blame us.
[/quote]
Imposed by itself. Religion is an infectious psychological disease, the mental version of a virus.

[QUOTE=fessie]
“Things” do not run the world. Not until and unless the scenario from Terminator 2 comes to pass and computers learn to bypass us entirely. Even then, we’ll have to acknowledge that they’re OUR creation, they’re OF us, we gave them certain capacities.
[/QUOTE]
And once created, they grow beyond us. No person controls the economy, for example; it’s composed of people, but has an existence all it’s own.

[QUOTE=Public Animal No. 9]
I am a Christian believer, and I’m far from a puppet.
[/quote]
Well, that’s your opinion; or rather, the opinion imposed on you by the religion that dominates you.

[QUOTE=Public Animal No. 9]
People do stupid and/or evil things for many reasons. Sometimes - perhaps most of the time - those reasons are wrapped in flags, faiths, or creeds, as you have pointed out. People do these things because they want power over someone else.
[/quote]
And sometimes they do it because their religion demands it. People do crazy or evil things all the time that have no motivation but religion; things that just wouldn’t happen without religion, because there would be no reason for them to happen.

[QUOTE=Public Animal No. 9]
Religion, racism, sexism, communism, etc. are organizing themes that help them do that. But most religions, at their core, do not call for such behavior.
[/quote]
Yes, they do.

[QUOTE=Public Animal No. 9]
I don’t see how anyone can say that a person who follows the words of Jesus or the Buddha is working to foment evil in the world.
[/quote]
First, I regard teaching people lies evil in itself. And second, they involve a view of the world that helps protect and promote evil, especially Christianity ( of those two ).

[QUOTE=Public Animal No. 9]
I would heartily recommend reading through Thomas Cahill’s books that followed “How the Irish Saved Civilization.” They might get a bit preachy for non-believers, but they do show how religion - primarily Christianity, Judaism, and Islam in his writings - provided some very fundamental parts of current Western philosophies, and how they also incorporated other philosophies (such as the Greeks’) into their own.
[/quote]
And without religion, they wouldn’t have had to preserve civilization in the first place. There wouldn’t have been believers burning every non-Bible or Koran they could grab. And society wouldn’t have stagnated as it did. Inflicting disasters and demanding the credit for helping fix a tiny bit of the disasters they cause is a standard religious behavior.

[QUOTE=Public Animal No. 9]
I find it hard to look at where democratic governments have developed over the past 1000 years and say that there is no link between the areas in which the organized (and reformed) church has been strongest and the areas in which the democracies flourished.
[/QUOTE]
I find it easy enough; democracy flourishes best where religion is weakest, because religion is hostile to democracy.