Keep in mind who accuses someone with the username Ibn Warraq of being an apologist as well and “defending the indefensible”.
I’m not sure he’s big on reality-based thinking.
Well, Greeks at least still speak essentially the same language as their ancient ancestors; Iraqis and Egyptians to not. (As I understand it, a form of the ancient Egyptian language survives only among the Coptic Christians, and only as a liturgical language like Church Latin.)
Please find out quickly so I can plan my next vacation! 
I’m currently involved in the construction of a school paid for by public tax dollars. There are crosses on the side of the school, and classes on Christianity will be a mandatory part of the curriculum. Entanglement of church and state in Canada goes far, far beyond the head of state also being the head of the Anglican church.
That said, of course the “danger” in Egypt goes far beyond that of the Catholic school system. But democracy is hard. First, you’ve got the problem that the majority of people are idiots. Second, you’ve got the problem that it’s utterly impossible without entrenched cultural institutions supporting it. We in western democracies have it good mostly because various European nations spent several centuries developing the social institutions that support democracy. Those institutions can be adopted by other societies in relatively short periods of time (witness modern India, though that’s hardly a simple story), but they cannot be imposed, or expected to appear magically and instantaneously. They must grow naturally, spontaneously, from the ground up. And along the way, the development of democratic traditions may well produce some perverse results. In the long run, we hope the results will be worth those short-term perversities, but they may not be. Maybe the whole experiment in Egypt will collapse back to authoritarian dictatorship. Or maybe it will collapse to theocratic dictatorship, as you fear.
Perhaps, but what’s the alternative?
Shall we throw the West’s support behind yet another military dictator? Egypt’s people don’t deserve freedom, for fear of what they might do with it? Even if that were not a morally repugnant position, it’s not a viable position in the long term, as oppression only foments more unrest, more radicalism, more likelihood of an actually Islamic revolution.
Or perhaps we should impose proper Western secular democratic values? Ridiculous. Impossible. One can no more impose our system of government than you can push a rope uphill. Our values must be adopted. They cannot be imposed. And if we wish to convince others that our values are worth adopting, perhaps we should avoid doing things like funding oppressive dictators or staging coups against elected leaders.
No they don’t and frankly it’s not clear how many are descended from the Ancient Greeks
Without googling it, tell me what religion the Canadian Prime Minister follows. I would be genuinely surprised if one Canadian in fifty had ever thought or cared about it. The idea of digging up a Jeremiah Wright equivalent, delving into what religious schools the P.M. might have attended as a child (and relentlessly spreading rumours about same), or caring where he spends his Sundays is so utterly unCanadian that the fact that Americans can run with such material for weeks of news cycles is baffling.
Sure, we have some “ceremonial deism” leftovers in government rituals, and we haven’t gone out of our way to tear down harmless symbols on the sides of old buildings, but we have no equivalent of Billy Graham - a politically powerful religious leader that the head of government must meet with or risk offending a large segment of the population?
By comparison, American politics is constantly being subjected to religious litmus tests, religious interference and, but for eternal vigilance, actual religion-based legislation. Compared to that, I’ll tolerate some crosses on the side of a Canadian school (though I would like to hear more about a new, as opposed to historic, school that has them)and Parliament starting a session with “God save the Queen” any day.
Huh, I looked it up, and religion-based private schools can indeed get public funding in Canada, though the terms vary by province (I myself attended schools run by what was then known as the Protestant School Board of Greater Montreal). Well, as long as the science classes aren’t teaching intelligent design, no big whoop.
It’s not anything horrifying, and there’s pretty much complete governmental oversight of the curriculum, but it would absolutely be unconstitutional south of the border. I’m not overly concerned about the state of church and state in Canada, but there’s absolutely no question that we don’t have anything like a complete separation.
But this is, in fact, a brand spanking new elementary school paid for with tax dollars and crosses embedded in the brickwork on the exterior walls. I can take a picture of it next time I’m there if you like.
Egyptians have similar attitudes.
That’s why Valteron’s ranting about “separation of Church and State” is so ridiculous.
Lots of country don’t agree with the idea of “separation of Church and State” and one of those states is his own.
Comparing states that do not have 100% perfect separation of church and state with Muslim states is like comparing a school-yard bully to a mafia hit-man.
The examples of church-state mixing you can find in countries like Canada is minimal compared to many Muslim countries.
Everyone knows what you’re driving at. You think Muslims should be judged by a different standard than Christians. Just say what you mean, it would save everyone a lot of effort.
I see no reason to think that if you were to magically replace Canada’s religiously apathetic Christians with religiously apathetic Muslims that there would be much difference.
All of them to some degree, I should think. And isn’t modern Greek much more closely related to modern Greek than Arabic to ancient Egyptian?
Aside from being bigoted that’s also yet another example of you shifting the goal posts.
I never compared Egypt and Canada.
You were the one who rather foolishly decided to attack Egypt for not having separation of Church and State without realizing that most western states, including the one you’re from as well as your beloved Israel don’t have it.
Again, considering your enthusiastic support and endorsement of racist, fascist hate groups that’s not surprising.
Well, we shall see. I figure the Egyptians will have to have three fair elections in a row to demonstrate they’re serious about this democracy stuff. Heck, it took the Americans over a decade to get their act together, from revolution to constitution, and before them the English dicked around off and of from 1642-1689.
I’ll still put our particular flavour well over the Americans who might have a better formula on paper (though arguably not) but don’t adhere to it anyway.
For starters considering the various migrations through Greece it’s not clear how many are and most in fact are far, far more related to the Turks than the ancient Greeks.
As for the language, you seem to be stepping back pretty dramatically from your original claim that modern Greeks “still essentially speak the same language.”
I’ll grant you that ancient and modern Greek are more related than modern standard Arabic and ancient Egyptian, but modern and ancient Greek are about as closely related as English and Latin.
He may have been making the point that after so many centuries and the inevitable interbreeding, there are probably more people in the general region who are descended from the ancient Greeks than there are those who aren’t.
My take on this thread is that the OP is trying to set a trap for those who expressed optimism at the prospect of Egyptian democracy and the rest of the Arab Spring. In short: If an Islamist Nightmare ensues, then you’re to blame and the political fallout is yours to endure.
But of course the American political arena, along with the Straight Dope, are far removed from the Arab political arena, so all we can do is watch from the sidelines as the situation over there unfolds. Neither side is influencing events, so there shouldn’t be a lot of domestic political points to score if things turn out badly.
As has already been pointed out, the prospect of a lot of victories for Islamist parties was widely acknowledged by those addressing the prospect of Arab democracy. It’s an unavoidable risk and necessary evolution that will play out weather liberals like it or not.
OTOH, ongoing US aid the Egypt and the conditions whereby it may be rescinded is a legitimate issue for domestic politics. If the Dems insist on continuing aid to a Taliban-like regime in Egypt, then you have grounds to criticize.
I’ll bet the average liberal doper spent more time being fucked with by schoolyard bullies than by mafia hit-men.
Once again, you are comparing chalk and cheese, apples and oranges. I repeat that comparing the minor cases of failure to separate church and state in western countries and the theocratic impositions in Muslim states is like comparing a school-yard bully to a mafia hit-man.
Since you reproach me for lacking “relaity-based thinking”, let’s you an I look at some of the realities of Islam compared to the west.
Here are some examples of gross violations of the individual’s freedom of conscience and religion under Islam. See if you can find equivalent violations in western countries. The following quotes are all from the Wikipedia article about Apostasy in Islam.
“The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.”
Can you imagine for one second the following sentence being true?:
"The majority of ** Christian* scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind."*
Even conservative Christians like the present Pope would never, ever adopt such an attitude. Can you think of any liberal democracy in the west that would adopt laws imposing penalties on apostasy?
And PLEASE don’t bother to quote some liberal Islamic scholar who does not agree. I KNOW, I KNOW, that it is never 100% of people in a religion who agree with something. But this is the majority, mainstream opinion among Muslim scholars.
And what exactly is apostasy? “According to Islamic law apostasy is identified by a list of actions such as conversion to another religion, denying the existence of God, rejecting the prophets, mocking God or the prophets, idol worship, rejecting the sharia, or permitting behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery.”
Pretty broad brush for a definition, right?
Now then, how many events in the west (with its “horrible, horrible” failures to separate church and state such as printing “In God we Trust” on the money, financing Catholic schools and other atrocities against freedom too horrific to mention :rolleyes:) can you name to match the following?
- In March 2006, an Afghan citizen Abdul Rahman was charged with apostasy and could have faced the death penalty for converting to Christianity. His case attracted much international attention with Western countries condemning Afghanistan for persecuting a convert. Charges against Abdul Rahman were dismissed on technical grounds by the Afghan court after intervention by the president Hamid Karzai.
Two other Afghan converts to Christianity were arrested in March 2006 and their fate is unknown. In February 2006, yet other converts had their homes raided by police.
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According to US think tank Freedom House, since the 1990s the Islamic Republic of Iran has sometimes used death squads against converts, including major Protestant leaders. Under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the regime has engaged in a systematic campaign to track down and reconvert or kill those who have changed their religion from Islam.
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Also in Iran, 15 Ex-Muslim Christians were incarcerated on May 15, 2008 under charges of apostasy. They may face the death penalty if convicted. A new penal code is being proposed in Iran that would require the death penalty in cases of Apostasy on the Internet.
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Saudi Arabia: "An Apostate will be suppressed three days in prison in order that he may repent … otherwise, he should be killed, because he has changed his true religion, therefore, there is no use from his living, regardless of being a man or a woman, as Mohammed said: “Whoever changes his religion, kill him”
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On March 21, 2006, the Algerian parliament approved a new law requiring imprisonment for two to five years and a fine between five and ten thousand euros for anyone “trying to call on a Muslim to embrace another religion.” The same penalty applies to anyone who “stores or circulates publications or audio-visual or other means aiming at destabilizing attachment to Islam.”
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Turkey: On 18 April 2007, two Turkish converts to Christianity, Necati Aydin and Uğur Yüksel, were killed in the Malatya bible publishing firm murders. Having tortured them for several hours, the attackers then slit their throats. The attackers stated that they did it in order to defend the state and their religion. The government and other officials in Turkey had in the past criticized Christian missionary work, while the European Union has called for more freedom for the Christian minority.
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Egypt: In February 2009, convert to Christianity Maher Ahmad El-Mo’otahssem Bellah El-Gohary, who attempted to officially convert to Christianity, faced opposing lawyers who advocated he be convicted of “apostasy,” or leaving Islam, and sentenced to death.
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In the west: The Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain is the British branch of the Central Council of Ex-Muslims, who represent former Muslims who fear for their lives because they have renounced Islam. It was launched in Westminster on 22 June 2007. The Council protests against Islamic states that still punish Muslim apostates with death under the Sharia law.
Not a pretty picture, is it Ibn my friend? Is it just me or do violations of church/state separation such as funding of Catholic schools in Ontario, or the Queen of England being the Head of the Anglican Church pale somewhat in comparison to these muscular expressions of Islamic fascism?